The Boston Marathon Bombing Debate Thread

Great Debates
61

And it was the conservative Bush-allied government in Spain who kept trying to play that card after the March bombings, accurately foretelling that an Al-Q connection would galvanize backlash against being involved in the Iraq war and sweep them from office.

Like MEBruckner points out, nobody is saying what you claim they’re saying.

When/if it turns out it was Islamists/Al-Q, *then *gloat that you called it if you so wish, but you got as much as anyone else here to go “sorry, libs, reality will turn out to have a neoconservative bias”.

62

Yeah, these two should go on the list, I guess. Ted Kaczynski it a little too lefty for the list though, I think.

Right now, the evidence tending to support the contention that it was right-wing domestic terrorists is:

(1) OMIGOSH, today is Tax Day! Right-wingers don’t like taxes!
(2) Did you know in BOSTON they had a TEA PARTY? Do you know who else is Tea Party? THE TEA PARTY!

Whereas I have abiding federal law enforcement interest in a Saudi national who was seen at the scene of the crime and Al Qaeda lengthy list of past civilian bombings.

So let’s not pretend that the evidence is a bit of wash still.

63

You have 3 non-US Al Qaeda attacks in your list.

You forgot the following right wing attacks. There are more.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-22/white-supremacist-scottsdale-bombing/55143058/1

It doesn’t matter if it was a right wing group or Al Qaeda (FWIW, they are arguably both radical right wing groups, just from different cultures, although left wingers can and do commit terrorism too).

Having said that, I’d assume it was an Islamist group that did it. I don’t see what there is to gain from a domestic right wing group from attacking a marathon. They seem like they want to attack government institutions, liberals or liberal groups. Al Qaeda wants to create fear and terror by targeting civilians in random, public situations. the bombing fits Al Qaedas MO more from what I can tell.

64

Huh? Sixth graders know enough to load pipe bombs with nails for maximum effect. Nail bombs were a favorite of the IRA, not just because nails are cheap and hard to trace, but because they rip the shit out of whoever they hit. Ball bearings are almost merciful by comparison.

I never trusted those bastards.

65

And left-wing terrorists?

Oh I forgot, some are on the faculty of Columbia University or involved with Chicago community organization.

But left-wingers are on the side of the angels.

66

Or it shows the perpetrator has a basic interest in and knowledge of weaponry and military tactics - which is hardly inconsistent with being a homegrown right-wing “Tree of Liberty” type.

67

Doctor from the Brigham & Woman’s Hospital being interviewed on CNN atm is saying that the shrapnel they’ve seen has been incidental with no suggestion that it was part of the device, and described the severe lower limb injuries as being due to blast effect. For whatever that’s worth.

68

I think it’s hard to decide on what type of person(s) is/are responsible. I’d go with the lone-douchbag theory because it looked like this attack was supposed to do more damage and wouldn’t suprise me if it’s some nutter who thinks Obama’s selling the US to China.

Although, the fact that it’s tax day, patriots day, Boston Tea Party, Hitler’s birthday, etc., may just be conspiracy theory fodder. Then again, the person I described above could use reasons like these as a motivation.

But plenty of already existing terror groups are willing to do such things like this. I think the reason this happened today is more likely that the marathon is a HUGE event (the city’s basically closed that day) with large press coverage. So if they psycho(s) want fame, they’ll get it pretty easily.

What’s freaking me out is I used to live about 6-7 blocks from the finish line.

69

The point is that domestic terrorists, both “right wing” and “muslim extremists” have very similar views if you get small differences in mythology and your strawman out of the way.

Yes there are problems with the whole right/left thing, even in the US our politics do not mirror those of the French Revolution.

And to your first part Hossein Kazemeyni Boroujerdi, Hashem Aghajari and Salman Rushdie will probably disagree with your unsubstantiated claim.

As for the second part, unless you can show US domestic terrorism from Al-Quaeda, Hamas, and the Hezboll you can take your strawman and go home.

The reality is that the motivations for bomging of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and 9/11 are pretty damn close if you ignore they are from different factions of one mythology and fit the definition of “right wing” despite your attempts to direct my argument in ways I didn’t present.

You may have forgot about this 2011 failed attempt that is a good example of a “right wing” bomber who has similar motivations to the Millennium Bomber

70

s/US domestic terrorism from Al-Quaeda, Hamas, and the Hezboll/US domestic terrorism from Hamas and the Hezboll/

Sorry

71

I once hugged a puppy to death, does that count?

72

What “unsubstantiated claim” did I make that those three would disagree with?

I never said anything about Hamas or the Hezbollah engaging in terrorism within the US though the Hezbollah has credibly been accused of attacking US targets abroad.

You claimed that Muslim radicals were “right-wingers” I pointed out that was wrong. They don’t fit into the left-right paradigm and I pointed to both Hamas and the Hezbollah who’s domestic policies in Lebanon and Palestine are far more socialist than capitalist as well as the Iranian government.

To give an obvious example, most of the key members of Hezbollah belonged to a number of organizations with the word “socialist” in their name and their staunch allies of the Assad regime which labels itself a “Revolutionary Socialist Republic”.

You also decided in your loaded question on what constituted a “right-wing” group brought up a definition that would fit far closer the IRA, ETA, PKK, or even the NLF(more commonly known as the Viet Cong).

Hell, by the definition you use, the Soviet Union was right-wing government.

Anyway, I also pointed out that your reference to “ethnic groups” made little sense since most Muslim radical groups are multi-ethnic and anti-nationalist, even ones like Hezbollah and Hamas.

I’m also unclear exactly why I’m being accused of “a strawman” and being told to “go home”.

Show me where I distorted your claims. Did I misread you when you claimed that Muslim radicals were “right-wingers”?

73

I should also note if you were the person who s name you are using you would know of people like Youcef Nadarkhani. Nor would you make the silly claim that the "nor has the Iranian government has ever suggested criminalizing other religious groups. "

The Bahá’ís probably disagree with you on that one too, The definition of “right wing” I offered still fits.

74

I"m done until you can stay on topic.

Have a good night sir. Save your time and don’t bother with the strawmen.

75

FWIW, I always thought the IRA was somewhat “rightist” in ideology. Strong affiliation of church and state, to begin with…

76

I’m very familiar with that case you’re talking about. Christianity is not criminalized in Iran. Nadarkhani was charged because he “abandoned Islam” and also tried to convert other Muslims to Christianity. What he did should not be a crime and when he was acquitted of apostasy that was a great blow for freedom.

My father had to leave Iran over a disagreement with his brother and other members of his family.

Also, the “Ibn Warraq” You’re referring to is using a pseudonym that has been used by Muslim apostates for centuries. That’s why I use it as my username. Not because of him, whom I respect but disagree with.

Of this you’re correct, and I should have been clearer. When you made your comment about criminalizing religions, I thought you were talking about criminalizing Christianity. The Iranian government doesn’t criminalize Christianity or Judaism. Due to Islamic tradition it recognizes and offers legal protection to citizens who are Christian, Jewish, and Zoroastrian because they are “people of the book”(yes, the Zoroastrians don’t believe in the God of Abraham but move along, move along, don’t look a gift horse in the mouth). They also at times seem to choose to view the Mandaeans as Christians, which makes little sense, but they’re usually protected.

However, yes, the Iranian government is hell on wheels when it comes to groups that came about after Muhammad so the Bahai have serious issues and people will note if they look through my history I’ve posted about it in the past.

Translation: You shredded my arguments so I’m going to run away while accusing you of building “strawmen”.

Once again, I note you fail to show where I distorted your arguments which is what I would have had to do to create a “strawman”.

Your definition of “right-wing” is so overly broad that it includes Saddam Hussein, Gamal Abd Al-Nasser, both Assads, Yasser Arafat, the PLO, the PKK, the IRA, the ETA, the Soviet Union, Communist Bulgaria, and a whole host of others.

In short, from a real-world standpoint, it’s meaningless.

77

They were officially Marxist.

78

Hating Protestants doesn’t mean you’re in bed with the Pope, though hating Protestants and being twelve might work. :stuck_out_tongue:

79

My comments were about those who have committed terroristic acts in the US, you are trying to build a straw man by changing the context.

And the fact that Iran is tenuously tolerant of other abrahamic mythologies IF they were around before Mohammed but put people to death due to disagreements with their idea of muslim teachings or those who are just non-believers proves your point wrong.

The fact you thought I was talking about christians is a perfect example, I am not a christian, the Iranians would not be tolerant about my world view and I would be subject to state action which could put me to death due to that fact.

This is quite similar to “Christian” domestic terrorists who will kill and or mame people out of a belief that they should be able to force these views on others. Sure they may give the Mormons or Catholics some slack (this century) but they are the same.

The fact you are so stuck in it means you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

The motivations and desires of “christian” right-wing terrorists in this country have been nearly identical to the actions of muslim terrorists in this country.

I never claimed right wing stance as the only cause world wide or that only right wingers are the only true believers.

Those are all strawmen, my original definition of “right wing” stands which BTW tends to be separate from “right”

Timothy McVeigh, David Copeland and Ahmed Ressam are all the same, None were marxists, none were “freedom fighters” all were making reactionary attacks against innocents to “protect” their form of “Ancien Régime”. Maybe you may want to go look up the origin of the term “right wing?”

If you want to expand the scope of my claims do it with direct questions, not by feeding seeds of my statement into grandiose fictions of a quasi similar argument that you can tear down.

A.K.A. Strawman

80

I know this was a joke but the IRA were officially anti-sectarian and counted some Protestants among their members as well as ideological forebears.