I’m just astonished that we’ve gotten this far into this thread without anyone pointing out that someone who has voluntarily owned a Dodge Neon and three, count 'em, three Mustangs, is clearly learning-disabled. How can some of you be so mean to someone who’s laboring under such a disability?!
Wierddave said:
[quote]
Zoe, you said:
The scientific fact, confirmed over and over in rigorous, controlled studies, and published in peer-reviewed journals, is that there is no currently known method of weight loss that is effective and permanent."
I would add the following coda: “without a permanent lifestyle change”, and if you are still claiming that absent a medical condition, an otherwise healthy adult can not lost weight and keep it off by changing their eating and lifestyle ( primary activity level ) habits, I would question that. As far as I know, if you burn more calories than you eat ( in broad terms ), you will lose weight.
Oh, you can lose the weight. And certainly permanent lifestyle change itself is possible. But even that doesn’t suceed with 95% of obese people. Their bodies go into “starvation mode” and cling to every calorie. Even with my egg-sized stomach and shortened intestine, I am still too large for my small bones and height. There are days when I actually forget to eat so caloric intake is extremely low.
Certainly the people who have done the research don’t add your coda to their findings.
Who knows why people are so different? There are still that 5% who do keep it off for at least two years. But, from what I’ve read, most follow up studies don’t last more that 2-3 years.
If you have recent scientific studies to support your comments, I will be happy to read them. But I understand that this is not GD and cites are not required.
I suspect that you are applying what you perceive to be logic to something which remains a mystery to the scientists who spend years studying the issue. I used to have exactly the same opinion as you. Someday I’m certain that there will be a logical explanation and even a cure.
You seem to be a very intelligent person, even when we disagree on things. I hope that you will reconsider the known facts.
WeirdDave, maybe you just don’t know the right kind of overweight people. 
My mom was a fat baby, kid, teen and adult. She had, and has, enough will power, discipline, strength of character, or what-have-you, for several people. This served her well in all aspects of her personal and professional life except when it came to her weight. She did everything her doctors recommended, she consulted nutritionists and employed every sort of behavior modification that was relevant to her situation. Mom joined weight loss groups, drank shakes, got therapy, took pills, got shots and wore bizarre weight loss suits (even though she knew they were snake-oil, but she felt she had to at least try). None of all of that crap did her any good, because the problem she had was bigger, meaner, and stronger. I remember this incredibly strong woman reduced to tears on more than one occassion because of some part of her struggle with her weight. She has told me it was easier for her to give up smoking, after forty years of a four pack-a-day habit, than it was to stay on a diet for more than a couple of weeks. It haunted her dreams and chased her through her days, seven days a week, month in, month out, for decades.
Finally she had her ‘stomach stapled’ and back when she did it, it was a scary, actually radically experimental surgery. She could have lost her life, and very nearly did, because the alternative, living with that monster, was worse than being dead. Nearly twenty years later, life is better for Mom, but her weight is still an issue. Her stomach is smaller, but the cravings are still there. What has made her weight loss happen is that, yes, she consumes fewer calories. She consumes fewer calories because she, physically, hasn’t got a choice. Bariatric surgery isn’t weight loss made easy, by any stretch of the imagination. It is a diet tool that must be managed and maintained for continued success. Please, it belittles those who’ve made this very serious, life long and life altering decision by calling it easy.
Now, does this mean that every overweight person has gone through what my mother has? Naw, some people have put on a few pounds and can take it off by upping their excercise or cutting down on carbs. They’ve been of normal weight and eating habits most of their lives, after all. Some people struggle as much as my mom and are relatively thin, like my best friend (who did it by means of a lovely bout with anorexia and bulemia in her teens). Who knows why they dodged the weight gain? I strongly suspect, based on conversations with friends over the years, that a lot of people feel the same way she did/does just to a lesser or greater extent.
Everybody’s different when it comes to weight issues and really, it behooves us to remember that our experience is not neccessarily that of others. Plus, compassion, tolerance-- just plain giving the other guy the benefit of the doubt, makes the world a nicer place for all concerned. Why do I have this sudden urge to ask why we all can’t just get along?
Well, I’m gonna hit submit now, please don’t hit too hard.
Oh, and Diane? I didn’t even know I liked Vin until I saw that pic. Rawrrr! Thanks Jarbaby!
Nope, sorry, still not buying it. The one link you provided ( CSWD ) has as it’s mission statement:
It’s an advocacy group for heavy people. Their reason for being is to tell people “It’s OK to be fat, nobody should persecute you for being fat”- a statement that I agree with, BTW, but one that’s miles away from admitting that weight is under an individuals control. Look at the recent Weight Watchers support thread- the people who are having trouble dropping weight are the ones posting (for example, something like)“Oh, it was Easter, I couldn’t keep to my points”. The ones who are following the program are losing weight. Ginger decided she wanted to do so 2 1/2 months ago, and she’s dropped almost 30lbs already. You know what? She goes to the gym every single fucking day, I watch her leave. She’s cut sweets out of her diet and is careful about the portions she eats ( I know, I do a lot of the cooking, so I have to track this stuff too ). My first wife dropped 60 lbs the same way, 4 years later it hasn’t come back. NOBODY I KNOW who has actually done this has failed to lose weight. Look at BadBaby’s post above. The key phrase is burried right in the middle:
I never said it was easy. It’s hard to quit smoking, kick a heroin addiction or go on the wagon, too, but people do it. Saying “Oh, only 5% of all people can do it” is a cop out If you don’t cheat and keep up the exercize, you will drop weight.
( And I’m not allowing people who have an unrealistic self image who fall under the normal range on the weight and height charts to claim that they’re “Fat” and thus “failed” because they don’t look like Calista Flockheart )
Weirddave, you’re still not getting it.
Who gives a shit if someone can change themselves? Who cares if the fatties are fat because they refuse to do anything about it? Who gives a rat’s ass? That’s no damned excuse for anyone to be mean to them, to harrass them, or to even give them the “evil eye” on the street.
We’re a civilized society. People should be able to go outside and not be treated badly or glared at for daring to be seen in public while fat. And the people who treat complete strangers (who just happen to be fat, for whatever reason) rudely are the shitheads. Doesn’t matter how easy it would be for the fat person to lose weight. They are not doing anything to anyone, other than being seen in public while fat.
And while I know you’ll say that you don’t “condone” cruelty to strangers, what exactly was your point in bringing up the idea that fat people can change? Once again, what the hell does that have to do with the appropriateness of them getting tormented?
It’s the tormentors that deserve the spotlight, not the tormented. Why do the tormentors feel the need to be shitheads to fat people? Where’s their sense of decency, of general politeness? What gives them the right to be mean to someone else who hasn’t done anything to them? See, they are the ones we need to be discussing, not whether or not a fat person could lose weight, if they really wanted to.
First, I know a Keith Berry here in Campbell River, B.C. FWIW.
Secondly, I wish to gloat that I have lost 32 pounds in the last two months as a result of not eating bread, rice, pasta and potatoes and fruit, and stuffing myself with meat, fish, and green vegetables along with all the fat that the meat can muster. I also started drinking homo milk again. I feel great. I bounce out of bed after 6 hours of solid sleep. My wife can’t get enough of me, and a lot of my body pains have disappeared. I mention all this, not only to gloat but to inform that many people have been led astray by conventional health experts discouraging fat consumption, encouraging fibre and focusing on calory counting. Its all bullshit, and many people are obese as a result of the health experts. Thankyou Dr. Atkins.
Ya know dave - I’m fairly confident that yer a pretty smart guy, but you really seem to be missing the point here.
Do you honestly think that any of the people that attack someone because of their weight, or bully them, or break both their legs, neck and back and throw them in a pit, actually ask the larger person if they have some sort of obesity-causing medical issue?
Really? Do you think they do that? I’m thinking that these bullies just see a target and don’t give a flying fuck why the person is large.
Fat, for some people, is a medical issue. For some it is an emotional issue. For some it is an eating issue. None of these facts make it appropriate or right that a person should be attacked because of their weight.
People who attack and harm someone based on their size, are just as obnoxious, rotten and deserving of the great sea-gull of fate to shit royally in their face, as those that attack and harm others based on religion, sex, sexual orientation, race, etc.
It’s a shitty, shitty thing to do, and it doesn’t matter what sort of lame-ass justification the bully has.
Jezzly Christ! “Hard” to kick a heroin addiction?! Yeah, some people can kick whatever habit, some of them even kick it forever. But the vast, vast majority cannot. Why can’t they? It’s not laziness, it isn’t a lack of desire, it’s just so incredibly FUCKING hard that they can’t. You don’t have the same issues, brain chemistry, whatever the hell it is that makes it so damned impossible. In other words, you haven’t walked in their shoes, and you don’t appear to have met anybody who owns a similar pair (hell, I’m beginning to wonder if you’ve got feet. And why have I suddenly developed this foot/shoe fetish?). But believe me when I say those shoes are out there and they pinch like a son of a bitch! Just go on believing what you’re comfortable believing. Wouldn’t want to upset anybody’s perfectly arranged little world view or anything.
Oh, and I would have put smilies everywhere to indicate I’m not yelling and that I still think WeirdDave is the bee’s knees about most things, but I forgot how to use those little devils. Just assume everything I’m saying is said with great affection (and a dollop of frustration). And YosemiteBabe and Alice are spot on when it comes to acceptance.
To be fair here, Dave is NOT saying it is OK to bash anyone for any freakin reason. He’s not saying it’s ok to be a bully, or to be mean in general. Only, AFAICT, that heavy people can do something about being heavy if they really want to. It’s not OK to be mean to them, but they don’t get any special kid glove treatment or ‘victim’ status, either.
Am I right here, WeirdDave?
And I have no idea where this:
found it’s way into our discussion.
Anyone who would bust your legs and throw you in a pit for being fat would probably bust your legs and throw you in pit for being red-headed on a sunny day too. Horrible people are, well, horrible.
Come on. Weirddave wrote that fat people could “do” something about their fatness, whereas some other picked-on groups could not.
Why did he feel the need to bring that up? What is its relevance? Does that mean that because the fat people can lose weight, that they are somehow less picked-on? No. Does it mean that the people who pick on them are less assholish, because they pick on people that “could” do something about their fatness? No. So what exactly is the point of even freakin’ bringing it up—that the “victim” (in this case, fat people) could change? Why even bring up the victim at all? They aren’t doing anything to anyone else, to deserve to be treated like shit. And their state, whether it’s self-imposed or not, is not relevant.
Jesus Christ! I feel like I’m arguing with the wind here. Let me make it perfectly clear what my position is.
I am NOT saying that fat people deserve to be treated any differently than anyone else.
I am NOT saying that fat people are somehow “bad” or any other derogitory term that might come up.
I am NOT saying that it isn’t extremely difficult to change your lifestyle and eating habits, remember I’m fat too.
What I AM objecting to, and have been through this entire thread, is the notion that fat people should be put on the same level as those persecuted because of their race, ethnicity or sexual orientation.
A black man, a Jewish woman, a lesbian girl…these are all things that are inate, they are part and parcel of who a person is. Jessie Jackson can’t chose not to be black. Golda Mayer can’t chose not to be Jewish. Christina 25 can’t chose not to be a lesbian.
Baring a medical condition, a fat person can chose not to be fat. It may be through Weight Watchers, it may be by getting their stomach stapled, it may be by simply running a few miles a day. Whatever the method, weight is under the control of the individual. Alcoholics recover. Heroin addicts kick. I am simply not going to accept another star in the constelation of victimhood when the determining factor is one that is under the individual person’s control.
I’m fat. I’m fat because I love to eat fine food and drink beer, and I don’t get enough exercize. I’m changing the latter, and with any luck, in a year or so, I won’t be fat anymore. See? My condition, my choice. For me to claim persecution on par with those who are tortured or killed just because of who or what they happened to be born as would be an egregious insult to them, and a monumental cop out for me.
Umm, I “brought it up” because Alice said being persecuted because you’re fat was the same as being persecuted because you’re of a certain race, ethnic group or sexual identity. It’s plainly not.
And, in case anyone missed it:
NOBODY SHOULD BE PERSECUTED FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER.
Anybody know when, exactly, this train derailed?
So, you mean that the cruel behavior that fat people get isn’t sometimes as cruel, mean-spirited and unwarranted as the cruel treatment directed towards people of different enthicities or sexual identities?
I thought cruel, unwarranted treatment of others was cruel unwarranted treatment of others—meaning it was “the same”, no matter whether the victim could change the way they are, or not.
I’m addressing several issues brought up by several people in this thread and I’m not quoting all ya’ll:
Exactly! So, according to weirddave, I guess I’m a no-fault, non-lazy fat person because I have had a chronic illness for the last 15 years and can’t stay off the steroids long enough to lose weight? Should I wear a sign so people know that? Maybe I won’t be oinked at again. :rolleyes:
Also, I didn’t just succomb to the steroids and said, “Oh well, I’ll just sit back and do nothing because I’m going to be fat anyway.” I was always trying to stay ahead of the weight gain–to no avail. For example, once I was working out five days a week and on Weight Watchers AND Phen fen, I only managed to lose 12 pounds in 4 months! My body just didn’t let me burn those calories.
So does that mean I’m worthy of more respect than my mother, who has tried everything and has been fat since she was a toddler? She had gastric bypass surgery and has lost 70 pounds. It is in no way the easy way out. If someone on a diet wants to cheat, they can (not that they should). She has no option to even have a treat now and then. She can’t eat sweets or a lot of carbs or she gets sick. How is that easy? She’s exercising now that she’s lost weight because her bad knees wouldn’t let her when she was heavier. The surgery is a tool to reduce calories, not a magic bullet. I’ve seen what she went through, it’s still a daily struggle, 6 months later. But she’s getting healthier and happier by the day.
I’m having my surgery on July 2. My illness is under control, but I can no longer work out because my knees and my back are shot–partially from the weight and mostly from the steroids eating away at my bones. That’s why I decided to have surgery. Once I lose some weight, I can start working out and be stronger, healthier and have a life again. I can’t wait!
Congrats, Zoe, on your surgery. It was the hardest decision I’ve ever made in my life.
Since we are talking about addictions, many fat people have “food addictions”. The difference between food addicts and alcoholics or heroin addicts is that you have to give up the addiction completely for recovery to work. Food addicts can’t give up food, they need it to live! If you are knowlegeable about addiction (I don’t know if you are, so I won’t assume), then you know about “triggers”. If an alcoholic has a drink, it’s a trigger to be out of control again. A food addict faces triggers 3 times a day. Now tell me that a food addict can just change their lifestyle. You may like good food, but you are no addict, so do not pretend to know what we can and cannot do.
In addition to having medical problems, I also have a food addiction. Does that lessen my struggle in your eyes now? I guess I can just change, right?
I’m about ready to throw my hands up at the whole thing because people seem to be intentionally misrepresenting what I say to fit their own adgendas, but I’ll try once more because yosemitebabe has always been a poster I respect.
My point is not about the way fat people are or aren’t treated, nobody is condoning treating ANYONE any way OTHER than respectfully.
My point is that a characteristic that is dependent on the individual is in no way comperable to a characteristic that is inherent to that same individual, in other words, (for example) BEING FAT YOU CAN CONTROL, BEING BLACK YOU CAN NOT.
How much simpler can it be?
Brutaly honest? Yes, you can. And you know what? It won’t be easy, but it won’t be any different than the millions of people who quit smoking ( smokers are all around, how hard is it to bum a smoke), Drinking (ditto bars) and heroin( usually by the time you’re hooked, you have an entire heroin supplying infrastructure around you). IT’S A HARD, BRUTAL CHOICE, BUT IT’S ONE YOU HAVE TO MAKE. Excuses never beat an addiction yet.
BTW, Nutty Bunny, from your next to last post, you seem to be one of those people caught in the middle between what a medical condition is going to result in and what you want to do for yourself. I have no advice, just know that I emphesize with the crucible you’re hanging on. You’re one of the inbetween people, and that ALWAYS sucks donkey cocks.
I wish you luck and would be happy to offer you online support, just email me, it’s in my profile.
Bolding Mine.
I will tell you exactly that. Surely you have heard of an organization called Overeaters Anonymous. They kind of stress that a lifestyle change is required if you want to find relief. They know it’s difficult and are there to help those who are willing. Thing is, those who are not willing have made a choice.
And once again, WeirdDave has NOT said it was OK to be mean to anyone for any reason.