I think it’s no different from any other conspiracy theories: knowing the ‘truth’ when everybody else doesn’t makes you special, part of a sort of crude elite superior to the deluded masses; oddly, this implies that the conspiracy theorist never truly wants to convince anybody else, but merely uses his shrill declarations of the masses’ delusion to further the schism between him and ‘them’, thus, arguing against a CTler is a bit like feeding a troll.
Everybody seeks a pedestal from which to look down on their peers; for some people, that’s the secret knowledge professed by conspiracy theories.
You’d be surprised to find out that there are not many eyewitnesses to the gassings … but don’t take my word for it … I’ll quote the esteemed holocaust scholar Yehuda Bauer in the introduction to the book “Eyewitness Auschwitz - Three Years in a Gas Chamber” by Filip Muller … “Filip Muller’s book is a unique document indeed, it is the testimony of the only man who saw the Jewish people die and lived to tell what he saw”. ** Now, I suggest you get Muller’s book and read it. ** It deserves a thread of its own. Let me just say that if you examine the ‘eyewitness testimony’ firsthand, with a critical eye, you will become a holocaust denier.
The testimony of the Nazis was obtained in hoax trials by men bargaining for their lives, so it is immediately suspect. Like the eyewitness testimony, it must be examined critically. The key document is the testimony of Hoess, one of the commandants of Auschwitz. It is in a book “Death Dealer”. Get and read this book. It deserves a thread of its own.
Note - rather that try to divert the discussion from the points in the OP, why not address them. There is plenty of time to consider the testimony in detail later.
I don’t need to take your word for it. I’ve read dozens of books by former Kapos who themselves carried out the gassings and because of their complicity, they lived to tell about it. I will read the book you recommended, if you agree to read a few books by Primo Levi, Victor Frankel, and Elie Weisel. All of these men assisted with the gassing of their fellow Jews and have written very details accounts of the horror.
Warning: the CODOH.com site linked in the OP has a forum that is chock full of the standard antisemetic tripe.
Allan Garfinkle, you should know that having a cite come from a place that maintains a message board where folks talk about the “Israeli controlled media” in the US, and describes Israel as a land “chock full of liars” does your cause no good whatsoever.
As noted above, I haven’t been able to look at the photos myself, but, yeah, I would assume there were windows so the guards could see when everyone was dead. And so what if there were no bars? So the glass was thick. You think the people inside are going to be able to break the glass with their bare hands in the couple of minutes before the gas gets them, only to face guards on the other side who will either shoot them or put them in another gas chamber?
Among other wonders of Holocaust denial is how they think the entire country of Germany has been hoodwinked into believing it is true to the point that they are still making reparations to Jews to this day (or at the least till very recently…I think they are nearly at the end of that). Not to mention Holocaust denial is against the law there.
Before you say it is because they lost and the Allies forced this on them consider that Japan also lost and, to this day, by and large denies or seriously minimizes their rather heinous war crimes (a match for Germany in many respects, worse in some cases). This remains a sore point between Japan and China and the Allies certainly did not force them to roll over and accept their lumps on this one.
Another question I have never heard a Holocaust denier answer or acknowledge: If the Holocaust was a hoax, who perpetrated it? Either all the high-ranking Allied military officers, American, British and Soviet, involved in the Nuremberg Trials were in on it, or they were quite successfully duped. But by whom? If they were in on it, who thought that up?
You know, I never understood why anyone would want to disclaim this event from happening, why is that? I mean, why do people not want to admit that this happened? Do they also deny that the Nazi’s were racial/ethnic supremacists, that they wanted to extinguish all jews, and whatever race they didn’t like? Doesn’t the huge amount of eye witness testimony and filmed evidence (and God, have I seen some that I would like to forget) make this argument sort of moot? I would think that a more common argument would something like the jews had it coming, and they just happened to lose numbers in a huge war, or something…you know…a little more believable that outright denial.
Another thing I don’t understand is that if you’re anti-Semitic why wouldn’t you be all for the mass killing of Jews? Why do neo-Nazis try to pretend it never happened? Are there many neo-Nazis that celebrate the Holocaust?
Although responding is rather pointless, this is not a proof. Proofs are mathematical assertions. This is an argument, and a poor one at that.
As mentioned, this is false.
First, the crime of murder requires neither. You can be damnably guilty of murder even if you perfectly disposed of both body and weapon, or if they are simply never found, or even if no one cares. Committing murders has nothing to do with whether or not we know about it.
Second, even in a legal argument you are so ridiculously wrong it’s not even funny. Neither is require for the charge of murder. Neither are wtinesses. I fact, no one piece of evidence is ever required (and we have vastly, vastly more available). In fact, some (quite demonstratably true) murders have been prosecuted based solely on secondary evidence.
Third, the weapon the Germans used to kill Jews, Sinti, Roma, etc. is ultimately irrelevant. They chose to do so, which is the important thing, and did in fact succeed. You may, if it pleases you, believe any damned thing you want. The Germans definitely did use poison gas, and they admitted this at the time. But even without this, they deliberately starved and overworked the population to death while denying adequate medical care. Mass murders have used that before.
Finally, even assuming you are correct, so what? The Germans deported Jews to nightmarish warrens of death for the avowed purpose of killing them off. There ain’t much getting around it.
For some reason, Holocaust Deniers love to believe that if they simply find some piece of evidence which they can plausible claim points the other way, it overrides the mountain of evidence the other way. It’s like looking at an anthill through a very powerful magnifying glass and declaring it looks bigger than Everrest to them.
What you want is irrelevant.
Demographic studies have repeatedly shown that the number of Jews in Eastern Europe, counting Germany, was in the millions (though they disagree somewhat over the exact distribution). This group essentially vanished during the war. We have good estimates of the number which found sanctuary elsewhere. They died, period, 'cuz there ain’t no place to hide that many people. Not only that, but groups the Nazis targeted died at an astounding rate, which no disease ever has or ever could equal. Only deliberate genocidal action could actually produce such ridiculous death rates.
Finally, top Nazis themselves knew, wrote about, and described the actions they took. If you won’t accept eyewitnesses, or army reports from the USA and the Soviet Union (who in this case didn’t exaggerate), or the records that were kept, or the admissions of camp guards, or the demographic studies, or the numerous inescapable historical surveys, will you at least accept that the Nazis themselves bragged about it? It was most of Himmler’s day job, fercryingoutloud!
Moreover, it’s not as if the Allies needed to manufacture hatred. And aside from the fact that the inescapable mound of evidence is incredibly huge, and would have taken thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people to fabricate (because, in fact, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Germans were involved in creating the Holocaust), the question remains - Why? And why would all these huge numbers of people keep silent?
Why create a huge mess of lies, which according to you are easily disproven? Why would academics lie about it, when they could acheive fortune and not a little fame by exposing it? Why do it in the first place, since they already occupied Germany and controlled it totally and everyone hated the Germans?
You raise an excellent point. The Neo-Nazis need a new marketing campaign. Since this denial crap isn’t working, why not celebrate the Holocaust? And celebrate they should! Murdering six milllion jews is no easy task. They have a lot to be proud of. They could have a big parade and march down the streets with banners. Perhaps even make it a festive celebration like St. Patrick’s Day. Whadya say Girfinkle?