What an incredible level of discourse we have here. It runs the gamut from “the authors are Putin apologists because any level of diplomacy with Russia is the same as total capitulation” to “the authors are Putin apologists because their non-plan puts the impossible task on Biden’s shoulders, the failure of which benefits Russia”.
I look forward to the day that someone articulates a moral end-state to the war that Russia would even conceivably agree to.
The only person who called the authors Putin apologists was the dumbfuck OP. Or Smapti, though I’m not sure he knows what tankies are so it’s hard to tell.
Otherwise, people are debating how stupid the letter was, but only those two thought that the letter was in any way defending or supporting Putin. (It’s possible that neither of them read any of the letter itself.)
Did you read this thread?
Do I not get the right to a little hyperbole? But yes, Smapti’s tankie comment clearly puts him in the first camp. And Sage_Rat is in the second:
Also DeadTreasSecretaries:
Others are between the two extremes.
Fair enough; hyperbole is the cousin of snark, and this community runs on snark like a pretentious Volkswagen vehicle runs on biofuel.
Also fair enough, I suppose I glossed over a couple of other people who didn’t understand the letter very well.
Normally I’d skim past those comments myself, but I visit the Pit specifically to give my eye-rolling muscles some exercise.
The timing of this letter is the main thing that pisses me off. Two fucking weeks. They could have waited two weeks to toss off this letter.
But I’m pretty disappointed in the people who decided that this was the right way to push for peace. These are people who could probably get President Zelensky or his wife on the phone.
Also, why give the republicans such an easy “toy” to use against President Biden and the Ukrainian people? Have we learned nothing? I’m irritated about this just like I was with the “Defund the Police” stupidity.
The only thing I hear on the news is how the Democrats are going to lose big next month. This is just more fuel for the fire.
The truth is there is little to no daylight between what the letter said, and what the USA, and the EU, and (to a lesser extent) the RW crowd in Congress are already doing.
Namely: Trying to diplomatically triangulate this thing to a stop, probably on terms nobody on either side is very happy with, while simultaneously applying just enough force and materiel to ensure the Russians can’t win on the ground but also aren’t routed on the ground and thereby possibly triggering a nuclear response.
All the letter did was say with some clarity what the diplomatic status quo already is. Both in terms of where the situation stands, and where our side wants it to go.
Putin is not being apologized for, and neither is Biden being thrown under a bus.
Geopolitically, we have an unwinnable situation for both sides. And an (probably) unlosable situation for one side, Russia, who will treat being pushed fully out of current Ukraine, much less Crimea, as the trigger for either a major nuclear escalation, or an internal regime change.
People who understand geopolitics and diplomacy and warfare look at this very differently than people who understand only domestic US tribal politics as seen on TwitFace & Faux Spews.
This letter will have zero effect on the upcoming election.
WTF are you talking about? How are republicans going to use this letter against the Ukrainian people? Or Biden?
I don’t think they’re Putin apologists. I think it’s more likely they fit into the target audience for disingenuous pro-Putin calls for “peace” and are amplifying them either because they don’t realize or are more worried about pressure they’re getting at home.
They’re already trying to walk it back
If Glenn Greenwald is on your side, you’re definitely in the wrong.
Naturally urging progressives to work with hard right Republicans…what was that about a horseshoe?
Just like Greenwald, you’re an idiot who is only capable of interpreting things that confirm your preconceived notions. You still haven’t offered a single objectionable thing in that letter.
This is a bizarre take on a letter that is relentlessly anti-Putin.
we urge you to pair the military and economic support the United States has provided to Ukraine with a proactive diplomatic push, redoubling efforts to seek a realistic framework for a ceasefire. This is consistent with your recognition that “there’s going to have to be a negotiated settlement here,” and
your concern that Vladimir Putin “doesn’t have a way out right now, and I’m trying to figure out
what we do about that.”
it is America’s responsibility to pursue every diplomatic avenue to support
such a solution that is acceptable to the people of Ukraine.
President Zelensky, despite deadlocked negotiations, reiterated that the war “will only
definitively end through diplomacy,” and had previously explained that “any mentally healthy
person always chooses the diplomatic path, because he or she knows: even if it is difficult, it can
prevent the loss of thousands, tens of thousands…and maybe even millions of lives.”
it is not America’s place to pressure Ukraine’s government regarding sovereign decisions, and with the principle you have enunciated that there should be “nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.” But as legislators responsible for the expenditure of tens of billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars in military assistance in the conflict, we believe such involvement in this war also creates a responsibility for the United States to seriously explore all possible avenues, including direct engagement with Russia, to reduce harm and support Ukraine in achieving a peaceful settlement.
In conclusion, we urge you to make vigorous diplomatic efforts in support of a negotiated
settlement and ceasefire, engage in direct talks with Russia, explore prospects for a new
European security arrangement acceptable to all parties that will allow for a sovereign and
independent Ukraine, and, in coordination with our Ukrainian partners, seek a rapid end to the
conflict and reiterate this goal as America’s chief priority.
Once one redefines success as “The US does nothing, spends nothing, and Putin disappears in a puff of Genie smoke”, anything less than that outcome amounts to Putin appeasement.
There’s just no reasoning with folks deeply committed to fantasy.
OP is a bigoted moron and a pretend democrat. The thread is just more trolling from the Trump trash.
This is the only thing you’ve said in the thread that is correct, but the reason you’re saying it, not to mention every other thing you’ve said, is stupid and wrong.
There are definitely pro-Putin “peace” plans out there e.g. Elon Musk’s, “If you convince Ukraine to give Putin everything he wants, there will be peace.”
This letter is exactly the opposite of that. “If you convince Putin to give Ukraine everything the want, there will be peace.”
Saying that these things are the same because the contain the word “peace” requires ignoring the actual content of the Progressive Caucus letter.
Yeah, but the problem is that the fire is being stoked by people like the OP who outright lie about the contents of the letter in order to undercut the Democrats. IMO, it is the OP and others who are disingenuously interpreting the letter in malicious ways that are doing the real work for Putin here.
I assume it’s just abject stupidity on their part, but it could be that they are knowingly and willingly allying themselves with Putin against Ukraine.
How 'bout it OP, are you fucking stupid or are you a traitor? Or both? I suppose I can’t rule that out.
Why? Why should the anti-fascist caucus wait two weeks to express their desire for diplomacy to the maximum extent possible? Because I guarantee you the fascists won’t hesitate to adopt whatever two-faced position they think they can get the most votes off of. Maybe the lack of a clear and open commitment to diplomacy is a vulnerability for the anti-fascist caucus and they don’t want to let their fascist opponents run on a “fiscally conservative” pro-peace position as if (1) anything a fascist says can be taken at face value or (2) the pro-peace platform would distinguish them.
But I’m pretty disappointed in the people who decided that this was the right way to push for peace. These are people who could probably get President Zelensky or his wife on the phone.
What you have just said is incoherent. You think it’d be better if they applied direct pressure to the guy fighting for his life in a disjointed effort, rather than to apply pressure to the US President to adopt a unified pro-maximum-diplomacy position that might in turn actually benefit Democrats, the nation, and Ukraine if diligently pursued???
Also, why give the republicans such an easy “toy” to use against President Biden and the Ukrainian people? Have we learned nothing? I’m irritated about this just like I was with the “Defund the Police” stupidity.
In case you haven’t figured it out, the fascists make shit up. Whatever position an anti-fascist might take in the eyes of a fascist, it’s wrong. If you see yourself as engaging in good faith with a fascist, you’ve already lost. That’s how I know we are fucked: too many dems seeking to engage in good faith with fascists, even to the point of vilifying the anti-fascist caucus of their own damn party, often adopting the fascist talking points as they do so.
We are fucked.
The only thing I hear on the news is how the Democrats are going to lose big next month. This is just more fuel for the fire.
Because most democrats are too fucking stupid to realize no good can come of placating fascists. They’re too fucking stupid to realize how chasing “centrist” positions just drives them closer to either fascism or extinction.
Really, truly, you seem to be upset that the anti-fascist caucus doesn’t seem too eager to happily follow the fascists right off the edge of a cliff along with their more centrist colleagues in the Democratic Party overall. Because I guarantee you lose if you play that game: fascists are far more adept at pivoting on a dime and doing a sudden about face while dim-witted centrists are left with their jaws gaping over their shoulders as they continue on, pedal to the metal, into the abyss.
Congressman Jake Auchincloss (D-MA) thinks it is an olive branch to Putin