You still haven’t offered a single thing objectionable in the letter. You’re just a blind idiot, and what’s saddest is that you’re not even interested in defending your assertions.
The Jake Auchincloss?
Wow. Jake emmeffing Auchincloss.
Jake. Auchincloss.
Gee whiz. Had you included this information in your OP things would have gone differently.
I just don’t see a need for this letter at this time. Seriously, I just don’t understand it. We should know by now that we need to be careful with what we put out there because it will be twisted. What should the President even say in response to that letter? “DUH!”? What did they hope to accomplish?
I’m very much on the side of the Ukrainian people. I want Putin and his merry gang of raping thieves to get out of Ukraine. All of it. And I think the Ukrainian people are the only ones who should get a say in what peace looks like.
They are having success on the battlefield and their morale is high and I just hate to think that this letter would dampen that morale in any way.
I don’t think the people who signed the letter are “traitors” and I don’t want them out of office. This may not have any affect at all, but I’m so afraid of the republicans taking control next month that I just can’t hardly sleep at night.
Imagine a different OP: “The House Progressive Caucus is wrong about Ukraine.” Such an OP could lead to interesting conversation, both on the details of the conflict (at what point should the US intervene diplomatically, versus relying on Ukraine for diplomatic direction? Should the US have any conditions for ending involvement in the war that are different from Ukraine’s? What are the political ramifications of one part of the president’s party putting public pressure on the president to engage in foreign relations differently?) and on the philosophy of war (Are there just wars, and if so, is this a just war? In a just war, what aims take legitimate priority over peace? How does a state remain ethical in the face of atrocities?) I’d see plenty of room to learn from such an OP and its responses, and I could have my mind changed: I currently don’t take much of a position at all on the letter as written.
That would be real different from the toxic sludge of the OP. It would also be an OP that @dalej42 could no more write than he could fart Axe Body spray to the tune of La Marseillaise.
Maybe, and try to stick with me here, this isn’t about you.
The letter is on the side of the Ukrainian people. They want peace negotiations done in coordination with our partners in Ukraine and they want a deal that is acceptable to the Ukrainian people.
By what mechanism would the Progressive Caucus writing a letter in support of Ukraine dampen Ukraine’s morale.
This letter will have zero effect on the upcoming election.
I said it earlier in the thread but progressive haters ignored it completely so I’ll say it again.
If somehow Joe Biden were able to achieve what the Progressive Caucus is asking him to achieve, he would be a Ukrainian hero for generations.
If Joe Biden went directly to Putin and somehow negotiated and end to hostilities in the region, with security guarantees, in coordination with our Ukrainian partners, in a manner that Ukraine found acceptable, would you support that deal or oppose it?
There’s no need for the condescension. Of course it’s not about me in the slightest.
And of course I’d support that.
I don’t think you’re arguing with my only real objections. The timing of the letter and what they hoped to accomplish.
Because liars and trolls like the OP will misrepresent it.
Fortunately, he’s a nothing on an obscure board, so the Ukrainian people will never hear his vileness there, but he’s just repeating what he is told to repeat, and it is the people that he is listening to that are really hurting Ukraine.
What do you hope to accomplish?
I think I was trying to have the conversation that LHOD talked about above, while maybe not being clear enough that I don’t support the OP.
Looks like they’re on the verge of retracting it. I know it’s fun to just call me a racist, but I’m not the only one who thinks these progressives have gone too far.
They wrote down what they hoped to accomplish and put it in the letter. It would be great for Ukraine.
The timing is unimportant as far as the 2022 elections are concerned.
Voter priorities go something like:
- Inflation
- Democracy
- Gas prices
- Roe v Wade
Lots and lots of other stuff.
- What does AOC think about Ukraine?
It’s just not an issue that will have any meaningful impact on the election. Also it doesn’t really make sense that voters will see this letter as not pro-Ukraine enough and then decide to switch their vote to the people who are actively rooting for Putin.
There is an interesting wrinkle concerning the timing though. Some signatories are saying today that they signed on in June or July based on circumstances at that time. I’ll wait for more info before I try to draw conclusions about what that might mean.
Like TFG cut out the Afghani government in favour of negotiating with the Taliban?
That would be my take. Even if we assume that they really did just mean to say, “We support Ukraine and want to seek a solution that is acceptable to Ukraine, abides by law, abides by reason, and saves lives.” That’s already the status quo, so there’s no value in saying it. The only thing you get is people looking through to try and figure out why anyone bothered to write the letter.
I am pretty sure that they had some sort of message that they wanted to send, and simply added so many layers of obfuscation and camouflage on top of it that there’s simply nothing left of the original.
They should have taken that as the cue to not send it.
It’s like if you started to write all of the things that you hate about what your boss does, to your boss, and then start softening the message, softening, softening, softening, and eventually get to a point where you’re writing, “Sir, you come in to work every day and arrange meetings. I attend those meetings and we hold discussions. I will see you there again, today.” You might as well not send it, because it’s just weird and makes everyone wonder what you were trying to say. And the best outcome is that they ignore it but the worst outcome is that they start looking for clues in the message of what the original, hidden message was, and maybe they’re able to tease it out.
You might end up getting yourself into trouble.
And the letter has been withdrawn.
So a nothing letter that said nothing substantive (and certainly nothing critical of Biden, Zelensky, or their approach to this war) has now been withdrawn.
And you’ll continue to hate and slander and lie about progressives, without substance or evidence, because that’s what you do.
But, more to the point, liars and trolls like the OP will always come up with some way to manufacture outrage. If you hold back for fear of what fascists might do, you’ve already surrendered to the fascists. Even if you don’t say anything, or you adopt their message wholesale, they will just make shit up to strawman you.
Best to stop pandering to the fascists, and instead give express support to the marginalized groups the fascists have foremost in their sights. Because if the fascists ever succeed in gunning through those marginalized groups, eventually they’re coming for you and me too.
If you worry about what liars and trolls will do with your words, you’ll never say anything, because liars and trolls will just lie about what you said, no matter what you said.
If this letter had instead called for the complete removal of Russia from Ukraine by any means, the trolls would spin it as “Democrats call Biden a wimp for not winning in Ukraine!” Lies are easy, and we’ll never be rid of them.
So, worry about what people of good character think of your words, instead.
I know this thread’s a dalej42 pile-on, but God what a fuck up by the House Progressive Caucus. And I find it hard to believe that a staffer just randomly decided to push “send” on a letter that they’ve apparently been holding onto since June.
I don’t have an issue with the letter. It may be futile to negotiate with Putin but realistically the conflict is not going to end with a decisive victory by either side. I’m surprised at the outrage over the letter after four years of DJT with his tongue up Putin’s asshole. It is DJT’s attempt to destroy NATO and sucking up to Russia that emboldened Putin to wage war. Blaming the signers of this letter is to ignore the facts.
Which is precisely the point of this manufactured outrage.
Always accuse the opposition of doing what you’re already doing is straight out of the fascist playbook. Both the Italians 90 years ago and the US RWs today.
Yeah, pretty dumb, but for reasons entirely unrelated to the content-free bullshit in the OP.