The odds on finding love in a (straight or gay) bar.

Great Debates
1

Let me start by defining a key term. By “finding love,” I do NOT mean “hooking up for sex,” nor do I mean “making an acquaintance who becomes a friend whom you decide to make your significant other because you’re lonesome and why not?” I DO mean something like “finding someone toward whom you feel the rush of infatuation–not literally at first sight, but by the end of the evening, after talking–and the feeling is mutual (to a significant degree); and the feeling lasts long enough for the two of you to put some energy and effort into getting to know one another over a period of, let’s say, a few weeks.” In other words: romantic love, genuine Eros.

In theory it can be found anywhere. Sure it can.

Does going to a popular watering hole increase or decrease the odds?

Here’s where I’m coming from. I really dislike the ambience of the “typical” bar/club–the loud music, the posing, the cliquishness, even the dim lighting. Plus, obviously, the various effects of drinking. So, the act of going out to such an environment is, in and of itself, a negative.

However:
you can’t find love without going where the people are.

However #2:
if the odds of a positive outcome are very small, it seems more reasonable to just give up on the outcome rather than accumulate a pile of negatives.

Sort of like the $100 glass of lemonade–gee, I only have to sell JUST ONE…

When I look at it rationally, I get an answer that makes me wish I hadn’t. Averaging over many occasions, I would say that, in a room of 100, I only find 1 person visually motivating enough to put effort into making an approach. (We fussy romantics are just the worst, aren’t we?) IF I take my own case as typical, which is reasonable in the absence of other information, the chance that the person I select also feels that way about me is 1/100 ^2; that is, 1/10,000.

As I am not too clear on basic probability stuff:

–Assuming that I go out to a bar/club once a week, at which I see 200 people, perhaps 50 of them for the first time, each time: what are the odds of the mutual magic happening? If it hasn’t happened in the course of a few years, is it more likely than not that some un-accounted-for factor is “in play”?

–In general, is there any real likelihood of finding love (by my definition) in such an environment? (Noting that there are better ways to meet people that you can “get to know” more deeply; but those ways involve a much smaller volume, so there’s a trade-off.)

These are real questions; not tongue-in-cheek.

2

Let’s use a musical analogy. Finding love is more like Scat (improvisation) then a written piece of music. To calculate odds and such puts your mind in the wrong state. Take a deep breath and let existence (call it god, the celestine awareness, instinct, whatever) guide you. Relationships and conversation are typically doomed to failure if they are planned and contrived. Meeting people, and getting to know them, cannot be planned and it does not really fit into any mathmatical formula.

Let it flow, don’t force it. If it aint in a bar for you, it aint in a bar. That doesn’t mean that if you end up in a bar you should cut yourself off in disdain at the antics and atmosphere. Never close yourself off. I have found the most wonderful things in the strangest of places when I was least expecting them. Follow reality’s lead, recognize you can’t control what happens to you, you can only control how you react. Listen. Allow others thoughts and words to influence your words. To go in with a planned line and a statistical mindset will make you seem stiff and uncomfortable.

Don’t care what happens, be yourself, find the things that you like, and be nice to people. Savor every experience from hearing a song to enjoying the way light reflects off of a window. When you appreciate what you have, what your looking for will find you. Hard to believe, and maybe I’m wrong, but that’s how relationships and life has worked for me. I am very happy with my life even with all of its difficulties and challenges and disappointments. The best you can do is enjoy that which you have been given the opportunity to percieve. The rest is magic and uncontrollable.

Sorry if that sounds sappy.

DaLovin’ Dj

3

If the sort of people you think you can love and make a life with aren’t the sort of people to go to a bar, then you’re highly unlikely to find love there. If you’re not comfortable with the ambiance and the sort of interactions there, the people you find there are more likely to be the sort of people who generate ambiance and interactions that you’re not comfortable with.

Go where the people are, sure. Go where the people are you might like works better though. :wink:

4

Eros ? Are you sure you don’t mean Agape ?

5

As I read over the OP, I couldn’t help but wonder: Scott, are you also seeking someone HEALTHY with which to have a potential loving relationship, or does it matter? In my experience, I could meet someone interesting (and potential relationship material) almost anywhere. Lots of social gatherings, including Saturday night at the local watering hole, involve folks who are “looking,” so to speak. Some are looking for Mr./Ms. Right… some are looking for Mr./Ms. Right Now. HOWEVER, and this is important, my chances of finding someone of quality for a healthy relationship went down dramatically when I entered a bar to look around. Why, you ask? A couple reasons come to mind.

First, while not everyone at a bar has a drinking problem, lots do, especially the regulars and the chronic bar-flys. For me, a potential partner with an active drug or alcohol (same difference) problem is not a promising prospect, although we might find each other attractive enough to pursue that “few weeks” period that you believe is sufficient for romantic love to happen. Personally, I think it takes a lot longer for real love to develop after a first meeting, but to each his own.

Second, by nature the social atmosphere at a bar is phony, going WAAAAY past superficial. There tends to be a lot of game-playing among bar patrons who are there to socialize to meet people. In addition, there isn’t a lot of peer support there for people to be real; just the opposite tends to happen, in my experience. Buddies, male and female alike, tend to encourage the game-playing. I am not interested in game-players… I want the real deal.

Can people encounter unhealthy, game-playing phonies on the internet, at singles dances, at your friend’s BBQ, at church functions, etc.? Of course! John List’s second wife sure as hell didn’t get what she bargained for when she met him at their church. And to be fair, one friend met his second wife at a bar, and they are very happy together, with nary an addiction in sight! But you were looking at your odds, Scott. My educated guess is that your chances of finding someone healthy for a decent loving relationship drops once you start scoping out the chicks inside Porky’s.

No cites here… just lots and lots of experience of my own and that of a multitude of friends and acquaintances. My best to you.

6

All relevant so far, thanks!

Maybe I do mean “agape”…whichever one best fits the description.

I don’t actually calculate the odds when I do something; I’m kind of impulsive and intuitive. Realistically, though…if I let tonight’s decisions bubble up from the depths of my soul, I’ll spend my time reading (or writing on the SDMB!). I have to motivate myself by viewing some activity as having a reasonable likelihood of a positive outcome in some reasonable length of time (like: my life!). That can’t be too unusual…?

If it turns out that by the time I achieve something I’ll have already been dead for ten years–then maybe I ought to rethink things!

7

Here’ your problem: it’s not that you are picky (god knows that I am picky), but that you are only interested in approaching people that you might want to have a romantic relationship with. You aren’t interested in having anything to do with people that are not potential lovers. You are shooting yourself inthe foot for several reasons:

  1. You are ruling out a LOT of people without giving them a chance.

  2. When you are only interested in “potential lovers”, it shows in teh way you dismiss everyone else, and this turns off even the 1-n-100 that you are willing to approach: it says that you are looking only for one type of relationship, and you are judging the person you are talking to in terms of thier worthiness to be involved in that type of relationship. This is a turn-off. It also suggusts desperation, which is a turn-off because a desperate guy is one that it going to puta lot of high-pressure on someone, and noone likes pressure.

  3. All those people you wouldn’t want to fall in love with DO have sisters, friends, ex-girlfriends, mothers, dogs, whathave you. Nothing increases your pool of potential mates like friends-of-aquaintences.

My advice to you would be to socialize in situations that enjoy, and in those situations enjoy everyone you come into conntact–do not evaluate people only to sort them into “lovable” and “unlovable” piles, but rather approach the people you meet as all having interesting things about them that you want to discover.

8

Met my wife at a bar two years ago, so it certainly worked for me.

9

It certainly can happen, but I suspect its more likely in a bar that’s not especially noisy and crowded. A neighborhood bar (as long as its not too empty) may be better than the hottest new downtown dance club, and if you don’t meet that special someone at least you will have met some of your neighbors.

10

Hmmm, I met my spouse in a bar as well, fifteen years and six weeks ago. We met during ‘happy hour’, a time when people actually chat with each other, as opposed to the ‘dance club’ hour with loud music and meat-rack activities in full swing.

11

Mmmmm, meat rack.

12

Not to state the obvious, but the environment at a bar is completely non-conducive to the most essential element of a serious relationship: communication.

So, even putting aside the presence of alcohol and potential alcoholics, even neglecting the fact that a lot of the bar culture emphasizes non-relationship-oriented sex, it’s still amazingly difficult to meet people there. You can tell very little about a person when you have to scream “WHAT?” every few words.

I’ve never been comfortable in bars, even back in my drinking days, and I never got picked up in a bar either. The two are very probably related; I was out of my element, and it showed. So, if you don’t like bars much, and think of them as a necessary evil on the Quest for Boyfriend, you may not be doing yourself much good.

I suggest the Internet; local chatrooms are aswarm with trolls, and other bizarre creatures from mythology, but every once in a while, someone writes something witty, or insightful, and then you can try talking with them. Then maybe, just maybe, you meet, and have a date, and talk for a while, and then over a year later you’re living together. That’s how it happened for me.

I see the bars and the net as two opposite extremes; one is all about communication, and one is all about image. Of course, there are all sorts of points in between; coffee houses, community centers, classified ads, etcetera. The important thing is to find a way that you’re comfortable meeting people, otherwise they’re never really going to get to know you.

13

I think Scott did mean eros – it is, after all, romantic, passionate love desiring to possess the beloved as a necessary part of oneself. It’s a natural part of being human, not “the bad love (as opposed to agape)” but the appropriate love between husband and wife, a courting couple, etc. Agape and storge build on eros and philia.

But am I the only one who thinks this thread needs background music: “Looking for Love (in all the wrong places)”?? :slight_smile:

14

If the general ambiance of a bar is not your thing, then I would think that in going to one, you’re only setting yourself up to meet people you’re going to later reject, as you will most likely not have much in common with him/her.

-LA

15

After figuring out the odds of finding “love” at a bar… compare to finding love in a doctor’s office, grocery store, library, bus, and even a dating service.

I know it’s cliche… but I prefer to believe you don’t FIND love. It finds you.

16

Helpful feedback.

I suppose the way I put the problem in this thread isn’t quite fair to myself. I’m not unfriendly in a bar/club situation, and I’ve (slowly and painfully!) developed the ability to strike up conversations. I should rephrase my 1-in-100 statement to say something like: I DO approach others, but my heart isn’t in it.

This thread actually grows out of another one in which I discussed my “felt need” for Eros (in the Polycarpian sense!) as a motivating factor in a relationship. I need to experience that “floating off the ground” feeling very early-on --or my cortical core starts telling me: This is NOT the “one,” time to run.

I know the desired “condition” will not be there all the time in a long-term relationship. That’s OK. I do have a felt-need for it to be there at the start, as if to “sanctify” my choice.

I’ve discovered that most people do NOT require this, but are willing to enter relationships with a more pragmatic attitude. I don’t seem to be constructed that way. I seriously doubt that (yet more) psychotherapy will alter that fact–it’s pretty much “me.”

I’m wondering what I expect to get out of this thread…a magic answer? There never is one, is there.

Imagine being a middle-aged philosopher and not being able to figure out this simple part of life. Kinda puts the universe into perspective…maybe that’s the point.

17

I need to experience that “floating off the ground” feeling very early-on --or my cortical core starts telling me: This is NOT the “one,” time to run.
Scott, if your “cortical core” was SO trustworthy and on-the-ball, why are you single now?

I understand what you’re saying. Who doesn’t love a crush? The beginning is always so hopeful… exciting… but is it even real? In the initial stages of a crush, one does more projecting on to the other person than actual acceptance of them.

Are you wanting LOVE or ROMANCE?

18

Not meaning to worry you here… but from you writing, I think I may know you.

Hmmm…

19

Umm, you’d recognize my shotty grammar and spelling if we, indeed, know one another.

20

“…Are you wanting LOVE or ROMANCE?”

Mith: I believe that I can only arrive at the former by passing through the latter. Not true for everyone, but for me.

And I’m not claiming that my cortical-core is trustworthy, just describing the signals it sends me.

As the name I use is actually my own real name, I think you’d be pretty sure if you knew me.