The Office: 10/4 "Dunder-Mifflin Infinity" (open spoilers)

[Unauthorized_Cinnamon]

[QUOTE=Big Bad Voodoo Lou]
Doesn’t Phyllis also have a small (or not-so-small) crush on Jim? When Michael took the ladies to the mall last season and Karen bought something at Victoria’s Secret, I recall Phyllis saying something like “Oh, Jim will love that!” And in a conversation (or more likely a one-on-one session to the camera) about making short lists of people that both parties agree it would be okay to sleep with while in a relationship, didn’t she say something about Jim being on her list? I’m quite positive I didn’t dream this or read it in some weird Office fanfic.
[/QUOTE]
When they were playing “Who Would You Do” during the office fire, I believe Phyllis said Jim. But honestly, who wouldn’t? The choices were Jim, Michael, Dwight, Toby, Oscar, Kevin, Ryan, and Creed. The other men have their virtues perhaps, but Jim is the most physically attractive, and has a nice personality. I thought it was part of the joke that when Pam’s turn came, she had to strain to find a credible alternative to saying she’d do Jim: “Um, Oscar’s kinda cute.”

As for the wedding thing. I am female, I’m married, and I planned a nice bash of a wedding, with pretty flowers, a fancy dress, etc. Aside from the issue of seeing your canceled wedding come to life, which could be painful, I also don’t get why it would be offensive for someone to “steal” my wedding ideas. But I admit I think women get monumentally stupid over weddings.

[Skammer]

(Psst, Diogenes… it doesn’t happen very often so I wanted to let you know that I am totally on your side in this one. I don’t get it either.)

[Acsenray]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
No, I really think she was implying that Pam sleeps with a different guy in the office every week. Yes, she slept with two men who work at D-M, only one of whom has accounts, so Phyllis’ outrageous hyperbole was clearly over the top bitchery. She’s not a nice lady.
[/quote]

I think the key word here is “hyperbole.” Phyllis knew it wasn’t literally true, but when her livelihood is threatened, she can be bad-ass.

Are you a guy?

I copped to this already.

It’s a deeply personal thing, which you don’t seem to get at all.

Maybe my understanding of the concept of “personal” is very different. Making purchasing choices for a party that tens or hundreds of people are going to attend doesn’t match any concept of “personal” for me. Unless Pam literally designed everything from scratch herself, you can’t convince me that going to the store and saying “I want this font for my cards” is significantly creative.

It seems totally obvious to me that Phyllis is kind of a bitchy weirdo, though everyone at D-M is pretty off.

I’ve already agreed that Phyllis can be bitchy. But I don’t think she’s a weirdo, in the sense of being remarkably unusual. I’d say the majority of people in any given workplace have at least this level of bitchiness.

[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
Try asking “Is it okay to name my baby the same name as my good friend?” and you’ll be AMAZED at the answers. Apparently some people are very proprietary with names.
[/quote]

Which, frankly, is crazy, especially if you’re talking about a name that thousands or millions of people already have.

BTW, have you checked out any of the outtakes from the show? Be glad they were removed, especially Ryan ordering Michael to get him a cup of water.

I liked that scene, actually.

[QUOTE=IvoryTowerDenizen]
A wedding is the sum of 100s of individual decisions (even a small 30 person one as mine).
[/quote]

Yes, but a decision that amounts to choosing which items to purchase among items being offered for sale, which would be sold to anyone who was willing to pay – That’s an extremely minimal, nearly non-existent, level of creativity, certainly not creative enough to be recognized as a creative work. Perhaps they’re showing that Phyllis doesn’t even have that minimum streak of creativity.

It ends ofup feeling personal and reflecting your own sense of style and taste.

Perhaps. And perhaps a lot of people fool themselves about how individual their own senses of “style and taste” are, especially when it comes to buying things that someone else made and offered for sale to anyone who was willing to pay.

[QUOTE=Unauthorized Cinnamon]
But I admit I think women get monumentally stupid over weddings.
[/QUOTE]

Now maybe we’re getting somewhere.

Anyway, while Pam was a bit thrown off by Phyllis’s wedding, I don’t think it’s something that scarred her for life.

[shy_guy]

I guess this must really be a man/woman thing because that just would not bother me at all.

I don’t think it’s a man/woman thing; I’m a guy and so are most of the people I know who watch this show, and we were aghast that Phyllis stole Pam’s wedding plans (I generally think of her as a pretty nice person, so it was surprising to me).

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=acsenray]
I think the key word here is “hyperbole.” Phyllis knew it wasn’t literally true, but when her livelihood is threatened, she can be bad-ass.
[/quote]

But her livelihood wasn’t threatened. Pam has never shown signs of favoring Jim professionally. Phyllis was just being a bitch, fending off a threat that is non-existent.

Maybe my understanding of the concept of “personal” is very different. Making purchasing choices for a party that tens or hundreds of people are going to attend doesn’t match any concept of “personal” for me. Unless Pam literally designed everything from scratch herself, you can’t convince me that going to the store and saying “I want this font for my cards” is significantly creative.

It takes a lot of work: you have to pick dresses, flower arrangements, write your invites, pick the design, the music, the favors, etc. It takes a lot of work and there are many choices along the way that make it unique to you. Personally, I’m not into all that stuff, but I’ve seen friends get really into all the little customized details. Yes, it is a significantly creative process and the result is a unique outcome. It might not be important to YOU, but I think the writers wanted to show that it was important enough to both Pam and Phyllis that it was a weird, creepy thing that Phyllis plagiarized her so completely. Pam did a lot of work and Phyllis took it. Imagine if you put dozens of hours into planning something with a lot of detail and effort that was supposed to be a personal expression of your lifelong commitment to another person, and then someone came along and took it for THEIR personal expression. Doesn’t say much for the person who took it.

I’ve already agreed that Phyllis can be bitchy. But I don’t think she’s a weirdo, in the sense of being remarkably unusual. I’d say the majority of people in any given workplace have at least this level of bitchiness.

Maybe, but no one I know or ever have worked with would think it was OK to steal someone’s wedding concept. Most people would know that was just an awful thing to do. It would be like someone designing the interior for their house. That’s of a similar level of personal effort and expression, and is similarly mostly picking out products for sale. Wouldn’t you be creeped out if you lost your house, then went to your co-worker’s home and found it an exact replica of the home of your dreams that you lost? If not, then we will just have to agree to disagree about it.

Yes, but a decision that amounts to choosing which items to purchase among items being offered for sale, which would be sold to anyone who was willing to pay – That’s an extremely minimal, nearly non-existent, level of creativity, certainly not creative enough to be recognized as a creative work. Perhaps they’re showing that Phyllis doesn’t even have that minimum streak of creativity.

I think I need to just let this go as “you don’t get it and don’t really want to get it.” Clearly it’s outside the realm of your experiences and thus you couldn’t understand what the writers were trying to express here about Pam and Phyllis. It was made pretty clear, I think, but OK.

[Acsenray]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
But her livelihood wasn’t threatened.
[/quote]

Her livelihood was being threatened by the “young and agile” thingy. She was sprinting from the same marker as Creed with his dyed hair.

Wouldn’t you be creeped out if you lost your house, then went to your co-worker’s home and found it an exact replica of the home of your dreams that you lost?

If I had bought everything – that is, had not designed or made anything creative and original by my very own self – I should expect to see other people buying the same things. Commercial entities make hundreds of thousands of identical things so that hundreds of thousands of people can buy and have those hundreds of thousands of identical things. Being a consumer is not equivalent to creating something.

I think I need to just let this go

As you said, this is just going to have to be an “agree to disagree” thing.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=acsenray]
Her livelihood was being threatened by the “young and agile” thingy. She was sprinting from the same marker as Creed with his dyed hair.
[/quote]

That whole age issue flowed straight from the mind of Creed, down to Michael, who made a huge issue of it with his Mr. Dunder presentation. Phyllis may have been reacting to all that Creed-inspired hype, but she handled it in a way that was pretty offensive to Pam. “whomever you’re sleeping with THIS WEEK” is a nasty thing to say, and totally unfounded.

If I had bought everything – that is, had not designed or made anything creative and original by my very own self – I should expect to see other people buying the same things.

You actually tell the people who are experts in making things like dresses, flower arrangements, invitations, favors, etc., exactly what you want and they make it for you. No, it’s not as creative as painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, but it does require an aesthetic vision; you aren’t making the individual items, but you do have a large hand in their design and how they’re executed. The sum of all these choices (and there really are a ton of them) makes a unique event. No two weddings are the same because of the plethora of choices involved and the normal variations in taste and personal circumstances. Of course one would become quite proprietary over those choices, considering it takes a lot of effort and personal decisions.

Commercial entities make hundreds of thousands of identical things so that hundreds of thousands of people can buy and have those hundreds of thousands of identical things. Being a consumer is not equivalent to creating something.

There are nearly infinite choices that you can make for this; the fact that Phyllis deliberately made all the same choices as Pam makes her seem like a jerk and a bit of a nut. Either that, or so utterly lacking in creativity that she needed to take someone else’s entire concept, not caring that it would make Pam feel awkard and bad. The upshot is, it says nothing nice about who Phyllis is.

[D_Odds]

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
[Shrug] I don’t want to belabor this, but no, I really don’t. I don’t see how somebody copying you takes anything away from you. I guess this must really be a man/woman thing because that just would not bother me at all.
[/QUOTE]
It is a man/woman thing for the most part. I don’t have to understand why such a thing would have bothered my wife, only know that she would be bothered by it. I’m not even going to try to figure out why. I’ll just be understanding and supportive.

[msmith537]

[QUOTE=acsenray]

I’ve already agreed that Phyllis can be bitchy. But I don’t think she’s a weirdo, in the sense of being remarkably unusual.
[/QUOTE]

If you don’t think Phyllis is a weirdo, you need weirdo lessons.

[Yookeroo]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
But her livelihood wasn’t threatened. Pam has never shown signs of favoring Jim professionally.
[/QUOTE]

Well, no. But then Pam has never been in an intimate relationship with Jim before. Phyllis is very understandably concerned about how this will affect her.

As to the “stolen” wedding. Ignoring the insensitivity to Pam’s feelings, planning a wedding is work. Phyllis is essentially stealing the work that Pam did on the wedding.

[Acsenray]

[QUOTE=msmith537]
If you don’t think Phyllis is a weirdo, you need weirdo lessons.
[/QUOTE]

But seriously, as bitchy as Phyllis might be, I find her to be almost aggressively normal. I don’t know about you, but I’m surrounded by people with annoying or distressing habits, preferences, speech, etc. Phyllis, Angela, Kevin, Oscar, Ryan, Meredith, Kelly, Toby, Stanley … these people have all kinds of faults and quirks, but they’re nothing if not normal. That’s the whole point, isn’t it? No weirdos. Unless everyone in the world is a weirdo.

The only people who occasionally break the bonds of normal (in descending order) are Michael, Dwight, and Andy, and maybe Creed.

[muldoonthief]

[QUOTE=acsenray]

But seriously, as bitchy as Phyllis might be, I find her to be almost aggressively normal. I don’t know about you, but I’m surrounded by people with annoying or distressing habits, preferences, speech, etc. Phyllis, Angela, Kevin, Oscar, Ryan, Meredith, Kelly, Toby, Stanley … these people have all kinds of faults and quirks, but they’re nothing if not normal. That’s the whole point, isn’t it? No weirdos. Unless everyone in the world is a weirdo.

The only people who occasionally break the bonds of normal (in descending order) are Michael, Dwight, and Andy, and maybe Creed.
[/QUOTE]

I’d put Angela on the weirdo list, and remove the “maybe” from Creed, but otherwise I agree with you completely.

[Geobabe]

[QUOTE=Yookeroo]
As to the “stolen” wedding. Ignoring the insensitivity to Pam’s feelings, planning a wedding is work. Phyllis is essentially stealing the work that Pam did on the wedding.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and I think a lot of people would be at least annoyed by that. We saw a lot of scenes where Pam was working on the planning, and most women put a good bit of time in on that. Leaving aside the specific idea that it’s a wedding, I think most people would be put out to have someone lift an idea they had put a lot of time and thought into, even if it wasn’t something they were going to profit from or use.

[Acsenray]

[QUOTE=muldoonthief]
I’d put Angela on the weirdo list, and remove the “maybe” from Creed, but otherwise I agree with you completely.
[/QUOTE]

I just get a strange feeling that there are at least a few people just like Creed all around. The only part of his story that I find entirely unbelievable is his commuting from Toronto/living under his desk thingy.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=Yookeroo]
Well, no. But then Pam has never been in an intimate relationship with Jim before. Phyllis is very understandably concerned about how this will affect her.
[/quote]

Sure, that’s a legitimate concern, but there were a hell of a lot of ways Phyllis could have expressed that concern without being so hostile to Pam. It was a very nasty comment IMO and undeserved.

As to the “stolen” wedding. Ignoring the insensitivity to Pam’s feelings, planning a wedding is work. Phyllis is essentially stealing the work that Pam did on the wedding.

Exactly.

As for the normal v. weirdo thing, I do think that Phyllis is a weirdo, but she’s much more subtle than Creed, Dwight, or Michael. Angela is also a subtle weirdo. The rest of them are pretty normal. I think D-M may bring out the sublimated weirdo in a lot of people who might be forced to act more “normal” in a workplace with a sane boss.

[Cat_Whisperer]

[QUOTE=acsenray]
<snip>The only people who occasionally break the bonds of normal (in descending order) are Michael, Dwight, and Andy, and maybe Creed.
[/QUOTE]

“Maybe Creed?” He’s a freak of nature who should have been drowned at birth! (In my opinion, of course. )

I’ve worked in a lot of offices, with a lot of women, and if one stole another’s called-off wedding, it would be very strange (mostly a “why would she DO that?” kind of reaction). If one said to another, “Whoever you’re sleeping with THIS week.” it would be gloves off, full-on bitchy. Guys might not get this, but Phyllis and Pam are both women, and they both know the code. Phyllis obviously has issues with Pam.

ETA: Or she’s one of those women who act badly towards other women and never get why other women don’t like them.

[Yookeroo]

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
Sure, that’s a legitimate concern, but there were a hell of a lot of ways Phyllis could have expressed that concern without being so hostile to Pam. It was a very nasty comment IMO and undeserved.
[/QUOTE]

Sure. I’m not saying she wasn’t being a bitch to Pam, just that her fears were understandable (and therefore not so much out of character for her).