Haha.
Yes, one of the first tricks they teach you in the PUA game is to tell the difference between a girl and a guy.
Bwuh? Everyone deserves to have a healthy and happy sex life but if that sex comes at the cost of attacking their partner’s self-esteem or through manipulative behaviors, then no, they don’t deserve it and they are losers.
To be fair, my brain always reads your screen name as Ms Smith and then I have to make an effort to translate it.
Ugh, I don’t think I’ll be going back to that other board. It’s fucked up on every level. I don’t feel good about lurking over their threads…even the threads where they are saying awful things about women, I still feel sorry for them…most of the threads don’t ring true at all; most of it sounds like pure fantasy. No, thank you.
When you try to neg a dude thinking it’s a girl, sometimes you get punched.
I think so. Young people generally go to bars to get drunk and hook up with each other. There’s nothing wrong with a guy saying “that looks like fun…how do I get better at it?”
That’s not what a pyramid scheme is. Really it might be closer to an MLM, which can be similar to a pyramid scheme. With a bit of cultishness thrown in for good measure.
Anyhow, it’s not so much about the business model. It’s that it seems more like a self-perpetuating made-up industry. They use the the same language and style you read in Robert Kiyosaki’s Rich Dad Poor Dad books:
- The average person is an inept sucker following the herd. (Describe YOU)
- Look how successful I am because of my method.
- Give me money, and I’ll teach you my method (Which typically consists of no more than some common sense and hand wavery mixed with some pseudo-scientific bullshit, amusing anecdotes and disparaging comments about people who don’t follow the method).
- If you work hard and follow the method, you will be successful like me! (If you are unsuccessful, you didn’t try hard enough).
Nothing. Just make sure you’re taking pitching lessons from Nolan Ryan and not some jerk selling fake “How to Pitch Like Nolan Ryan” DVDs.
Honestly, when my GF and I watched Mystery’s show, a lot of stuff did seem like it made sense. But a lot of it also seemed like they were trying to create one type of guy - a peacocking Ed Hardy wearing d-bag.
I think the anger comes from women who feel like they are training men to be con-artists to scam women into sleeping with them. Plus no one wants to see how their sausage is made (excuse the reference). Women want to believe the charming guy they just met is the real deal. Not a bunch of crap dressed up to look delicious.
Not to mention, they aren’t saying “I’m going to improve your social skills”. They are saying “I will teach you the techniques to land ANY woman.” I know it’s marketing bullshit, but it reduces their credibility.
But who is describing it as “con-artists who scam women into sleeping with them”? Is there really any such thing? To be honest, I don’t believe that there is any such thing as scamming someone into sleeping with someone else. Sex is just a fun thing to do, like putt-putt golf. If you don’t like putt-putt golf, you don’t play it. You can’t be scammed into it.
Maybe this is the cause of the anger – the revelation that charm really is just a series of bullshit tricks.
I actually agree with you here. Like I said, if a man has ever scammed me into it, I either didn’t know it or liked it.
ETA: But to be honest, I think that is where the anger comes from on the OTHER side…people want to believe in PUA because they want to believe that those cool guys out there aren’t really ‘cooler’ than they are. “I’ll just follow these 10 E-Z steps, and I’ll be just as charming as all those dumb guys! Just you watch. I’ll show you.”
Well, I suppose that goes back to your OP. There are some people who have picked it up over the course of life, and maybe some people who can be taught it, and some nebulous group in the middle, and some people who can’t do it even if they’re taught. I don’t know. I’ve never contemplated trying to change my personality even superficially, and when I’m in a social situation that isn’t my kind of thing, I find it exhausting, so I’ve never been motivated to try something like this and I’m skeptical that it would work for me even if I could stomach, but I can buy that there might be some people who could do it I suppose.
I don’t know. There are some people who just think the idea of men wanting nothing more from a woman than a night of sex is worth being angry over.
I find your insistance that people cannot improve themselves weird.
Have you seen Mystery’s show? It IS exhausting! he keeps saying he’s not a “club guy”, but all their trips to “the field” are always to the douchiest clubs. You have to buy all this ridiculous gear to “peacock” in. There is the constant practicing lines and routines and memorizing body language. Imagine spending all that time working on something worthwhile that really made you more attractive?
A good friend of mine was telling me about his high school friend who got into this shit and ended up as one of those PUA instructors. He said it was fucking tedious as hell! They couldn’t just go to a bar and hang out. Every time he starts pulling out decks of cards or hats or feather boas or whatever the fuck and doing his PUA schtick with every girl in the bar.
I find it weird that you think self improvement means pitifully aping behaviors that come natural to others. I think practice socializing will bring improvement. Playing the fool for a bunch of flim flam artists does not equal self improvement.
ETA: It’s as if people forget what true confidence looks like. Women know what it looks like, and when it is faked it comes off as sad and forced. So much better for these socially awkward men to get true confidence through practice talking to women than to allow others to sell them ‘tips’ like, “avoid eye contact…look at her briefly but then appear to ignore her”.
Once the socially awkward man gets used to speaking to women without doing things that will make him look foolish, he will get true confidence, it will shine and he will do better with women. All without the ‘help’ of a con artist.
Not since the sexual revolution. How old are you anyway, Grandpa?
Is there any anger from the “OTHER side?” Maybe a few true believer-wannabes but are there any outside of that other forum? Seen any here? Misogyny predates PUA by millenniums.
Looking briefly at that forum, it looks like a few guys who are full of shit and a few others who are wannabes talking big. The “numbers” they are claiming isn’t even particularly impressive to anyone who possesses a working pulse.
It can’t be a real movement. If it really were successful, then everyone would copy and flood the market. Just like with MLM, there are a very few who can make money and then everyone else fails.
Totally agreed. Yeah, I’m with you all the way on this. I don’t think it’s a REAL movement, and I do think it’s pretty much a freakin’ pyramid scheme (which I consider pyramid schemes to be scams).
I used the word anger because that was the word used by the poster who suggested that there was any anger in this thread at all. He seemed to think there was vitriol coming from the idea that being charming was really a series of behaviors. I really meant to suggest that the ‘anger’ is probably more likely to be coming from anyone who laments the fact that being charming isn’t truly a paint by numbers ability that can be bought, but instead just a knack that some got and some don’t.
If he had used ‘snippy’ or ‘zesty’, I would have said the ‘OTHER’ side is probably more snippy or zesty. I just took the word he used and ran with it, because it is just a matter of degree. If some posters really are all vitriolic and enraged over this thread, I haven’t seen it. I’ve seen some snippiness though, yes. From both sides.
You might, but I don’t think women as a whole do.
Maybe not, but I know more than a few miserable cunts who make fun of socially awkward guys who try to come off as playas. At work, it was the worst. These same women would be droppin’ panties left and right for the real playas though. That’s just how it seemed to me. Perhaps I’m wrong and there are tons of former nerds struttin’ around with their handy dandy rule books in their breast pockets, big pimpin’ these women who are all, “Wow, Eugene! You…you’ve changed. Let’s back to my place!”
You want to undermine women’s ability to detect bullshit? That’s cool. But bear in mind that even if the ones who are weak in this department still have 19 other guys in the bar jockeying to get in, sooo… one awkward moment can land the poser in the freezer while she moves on to Mr. Cool.
Just sayin’
(No, not really. I’m just trying to mirror the PUA nonsense, but there is a kernel of truth in my post, or maybe a dare. Go ahead, insult her, fake her out, pretend ignore her, feign interest in her friend, and see if she doesn’t have at least one other potential suitor nearby who can replace the PUA without missing a beat. Women aren’t quite as dumb as you think.)
Who’s trying to undermine anything? The point was about generalizations and how this board is usually pretty good at self policing itself but when it comes to love/relationships/sex everything becomes one big stereotype after another mired in personal biases.
Stereotype 1: All PUAs are scummy assholes who browbeat or trick their victims into sex.
Stereotype 2: Anyone who thinks the PUA movement has credible knowledge to share is a skeezy loser virgin who should be doing pushups and reading Voltaire instead of buying feather boas and leather pilot goggles.
Stereotype 3 (contradicts 1): Women can spot this ridiculous farce a mile away so it doesn’t even work anyway, even when it does as alluded in stereotype 1. No pick up artist could ever pick up ANY woman, except when they do. Those women don’t count.
Stereotype 4: Smart, interesting, and handsome guys are out there are getting laid, even if they lack the self confidence/awareness to do so.
Stereotype 5: If you think that women are actually going to fall for this, you’re sorely mistaken. Women aren’t as dumb as you think and have never made a single error in judgment when it comes to matters of love and attraction ever. EVER.
Again, I’m not a PUA or a disciple of the PUA movement. I just think that it’s irrational to be so fervently one-sided about the issue.
I find your last post mostly confusing…not your fault, I just am having trouble following for some reason. But I can tell you right up front that I DO think a lot of PUA shit works. I believe that a smoove talkin mofo can run mad games on many women and they will eat it up.
I don’t understand your point 2, mostly. Who’s calling these guys losers? I firmly believe that socially awkward nerds can learn to practice socializing to the point of having success with women. I don’t believe they should pay con artists for help.
Nope. The decision of when and with whom to have sex ultimately lies with the woman, so… she’s entirely responsible for her decision.
Well, yeah for the most part. Improve yourself for long term results, or pay for a cheat code and make an ass of yourself for pussy. Skeezy loser virgin decision.
Women are entirely responsible for their decision to have sex.
Are they?
Well, here’s your disconnect. Why do you assume there’s an error in choosing a poser to have sex with? He may accidently be good in bed, or simply be the one night companionship she was hoping for.
I’m not in the least concerned that poor, hapless women are being played by the PUA movement. If a woman wants to take home a boa sporting peacocking insulting poser, that’s on her. It’s the naïve, awkward guys who are being played by this routine. Women should be aware of The Game, but naïve men ought to be warned against the lofty promises made.