The Pick-Up Artist movement is a scam

In My Humble Opinion
201

Not old enough to remember the “sexual revolution”.
This is you, right?
“So, yeah, after a PUA has exhausted all the first and second draft picks, what was left may have been lonely girls, shy girls, or girls who just showed up with a plan to take someone home. Maybe the PUA artist does get lucky from time to time, but he’s going home with last call girls, not hot girls. Not confident girls. Not smart girls. He’s going home with girls who planned to go home with someone anyway. Not a real victory since he could have saved himself the posturing, peacocking, and insulting and hooked up with those girls by being a decent human being.”

You’re one of the “smart and confident” girls. Not one of the shy, lonely skanks floating around at last call, willing to home with the guy just looking to get laid.

So please explain to me how my comment was off-base or out of touch with you hip youngsters?

202

The girl who was at the bar for the sole purpose of hooking up isn’t a victim, and I’m certainly not concerned for her delicate reputation. So who in this thread is dissing PUAs because they are interested in getting laid rather than a long relationship? Because I haven’t seen that argument.

203

You are projecting this on people who are not here to defend themselves. Show me anyone on this thread, or even on this board who is angry about not being able to purchase charm.

Who is this “OTHER” side? Your answer seems to imply that there are people who are defending the PUA method tooth and nail when most of us are saying it’s a tempest in a tea pot.

You are on record saying

People here are saying that there is nothing wrong with picking up some tips. No one is recommending that socially awkward guys go spend thousands of dollars on seminars. It’s no less manufactured than the terrible problem of cat juggling in The Jerk.

As it’s not a problem, people will be snippy. But the “OTHER” side which you are pretending to battle isn’t here. Them wannabes are on the other board. Go get 'um.

204

In all the threads we’ve had on here about pick-up artists, I don’t think I have even once seen a woman express concern that a pick-up artist was going to “con” her into sleeping with him. I can only speak for myself here, but what I’m concerned about is that the Mystery Method (I don’t know about other schools of pick-up artistry) teaches men to act like creeps and not take no for an answer. I know this bullshit isn’t going to get me out of my panties, but frankly I had encountered enough creeps in my life before there was any “pick-up artist movement” and I don’t like the idea that someone is out there training more of them. Again, this is not because I’m terrified their pick-up artist magic is going to overwhelm my puny female brain, it’s because when someone is bothering me I want them to GO AWAY and not persist in bothering me because they read a book that’s promised that they can get any woman into bed if they just keep at it.

I’ll mention here that I do not frequent singles bars or dance clubs, and that to the best of my knowledge the only man to attempt to use pick-up artist techniques on me was a coworker (different unit in our organization, thankfully not someone in the same office) who came after me at two different work functions soon after I was hired. I hadn’t heard of this pick-up artist stuff at the time, and it was actually kind of a relief to me later when I did read about the Mystery Method and realized this was probably what he was doing. At the time the very weird and unnatural way he spoke/acted actually made me wonder if he might be severely mentally ill or a serial killer or something. As he was talking to me I was thinking “It’s like he took some sort of seminar on how to talk to women…because he wants to lure them into his basement and chop them into tiny pieces.”

205

Which is exactly why this isn’t an issue. The mind control shit doesn’t work, and women aren’t stupid. Case in point.

I don’t even know if the PUA movement turns people into persistent assholes who won’t take no for an answer. I think the only ones who don’t take no for an answer are those who were assholes to begin with.

206

No, that IS the issue – that these guys are going around creeping out women who don’t want to be bothered by them.

Yeah, like I said, I’m not worried that it’s going to work on me. I’m not worried that telemarketing or political robocalls are going to work on me either. My problem is that all these things are fucking annoying, not that they’re actually going to succeed in making me do something I don’t want to do.

207

Which is missing my point that these guys would be going around creeping out women anyway, regardless if they spend money on a “system” or not.

The nerds who try the system are going to flee the first time it doesn’t work.

It’s like “The Rules.” Reading that book isn’t going to take a nice mild woman and turn her into a manipulating bitch. It will take a manipulating bitch and give her direction.

208

It is an issue because it teaches an entire group of men that what a woman says doesn’t matter. What she says she wants doesn’t matter. Because he knows better, and he can give it to her. It teaches them that women are stupid and can be manipulated into sex even if they seem resistant to it at first. Does that not seem like a harmful thing for you?

209

Actually, from what I’ve seen from the forums it seems the advice is to be the alpha male, and the alpha male doesn’t go around badgering women into sex. The idea is to make yourself seem like a highly desirable man, and that involves not acting very interested in a girl, not contacting her too frequently, and things of that nature. Very similar to the rules, but for guys.

210

To be very clear, The Rules is an elderly truckload of manipulative bullshit, and a quick search will prove that dissension and parody outnumber fans.

Odd thing though, while searching for more currant general opinions of The Rules and PUA, I stumbled across some old SDMB threads in which several members heatedly defended and praised PUA techiniques, and claimed success.

211

And both The Rules and PUAs adhere to what is a very solid principal- which is not to show a vast mismatch in level of interest as your partner is showing.

I think romantically unsuccessful guys often get this one WAY wrong. I remember a thread back here on the Dope where a guy asked if he should bring flowers on the first date. A lot of guys (and women) figure that if a romantic gesture is good, a really big romantic gesture is better. There is a common misconception that it’s a good idea to go full force from the start.

This can easily kill a new relationship, It makes people uncomfortable if someone is showing vastly more interest than they have shown in them. It makes you wonder if there is something wrong with them, or if they just do that with everyone regardless, or if they have the potential to be a stalker, or some other bad situation.

In an ideal world, all relationships would slowly grow and incrementally deepen as the couple learns about each other, builds memories together, and grow comfortable. Unfortunately, our ape-brains are prone to obsess, overanalyze, overreact, and generally overthink everything about a new partner until we’ve worked ourself into a nervous mess and it starts showing to our confused partners. A lot of the “Rules” type techniques are not about manipulating the other person, but about manipulating yourself to chill for a big and let the relationship progress naturally.

212

YES. That makes me SO uncomfortable and I really really do not hide it well, and I can’t believe the number of men (and women, from what I’ve heard) who just don’t know when to back off. If you have to block your number to get the person to answer the phone, then guess what you probably shouldn’t be calling.

OTOH, one guy called maybe about 3 times over the course of 6 months without me returning his calls, and just left brief, friendly messages, and then eventually I did end up talking to him and he turned into the best boyfriend I’ve ever had. Even that was kind of pushing it, but if he’d called a bunch of times, I’d have regarded him as an annoying loser.

213

No, you’re not doing negging right.

“Hey, I don’t usually date alcoholics like you, but you’re cute enough to make an exception.”

The point of negging is to insult the girl to make her easier to fuck, not to insult her and not fuck her.

214

Oh, if no one disagrees with me, then there IS no "OTHER’ side. If everyone agrees with me that the PUA movement is a scam, than everyone is on my side, and there is no other side, I agree totally.

You honestly think that means I can’t open a discussion about it HERE? If I broach the topic here (in direct response to a poster who seemed to disagree with me that there is no scientific evidence that the scam works as promised) then I’m fighting some kind of battle, pretend or real? I have to “go get 'em” at the other board? Haha, no. I’ll just discuss it here, state matter of factly that Obvious Pyramid Scheme is Obvious, and if everyone agrees with me, we’ll all agree.

If someone disagrees, I’ll consider them the ‘other side’ and counter their opinions with my own. That’s the whole point of the thread for me. I find it bizarre that someone walk into the thread and suggest that I take my thread-matter and “go get 'em” at another board. Weird.

215

Shhhhhh. I’ll tell you a little secret. The system doesn’t work. You can’t actually manipulate normal women into having sex with you.Hence, if the system doesn’t work, then this “entire group of men” who were taught that “women are stupid and can be manipulated into sex even if they seem resistant to it at first,” are idiots to believe it and even more so for failing to notice that it’s ineffective.

No one is defending teaching sexist material, any more than anyone would defend teaching the manipulating techniques in The Rules. Anyone who blindly follows either system are going to be sleeping alone.

You are equating people who disagree with you in any matter as completely supporting the PUA movement. People in this thread are not. People are saying that there is some elements which may work, just as even steven is arguing that The Rules is not all evil.

I stated that in my post which you didn’t respond to.

[/quote]
If someone disagrees, I’ll consider them the ‘other side’ and counter their opinions with my own. That’s the whole point of the thread for me. I find it bizarre that someone walk into the thread and suggest that I take my thread-matter and “go get 'em” at another board. Weird.
[/QUOTE]
Again, I’ll state this as many times as I need to. You are countering opinions which are not being expressed in this thread.

The opinions which you are countering are in the other board. Don’t lump everyone who disagrees with you together.

Let’s look again at what you said,

Call it anger. Call it “zippy” whatever. Show me anyone in this thread who is saying this.

Who is this “OTHER” side? The only people I can see who may be thinking "that those cool guys out there aren’t really ‘cooler’ than they are. "I’ll just follow these 10 E-Z steps, and I’ll be just as charming as all those dumb guys! " must be over on the other board because they aren’t here. Or are they? Feel free to show me where people are doing that in this thread.

216

No, I made that statement in response to Ascenray’s post…he wasn’t talking about people IN THIS THREAD (or if he was, that’s weird, because I don’t see anger and vitriol in this thread at all)

So, I figured he was speaking just IN GENERAL.

So the exchange was like this:

[QUOTE=Ascenray]
'Maybe this is the cause of the anger – the revelation that charm really is just a series of bullshit tricks."
[/QUOTE]

See? Maybe he means people in this thread, but since I don’t see much anger in this thead (do you?) I decided that he is speaking in general about people involved in PUA. In the world…on the other board, in articles, t.v. shows. Not just this thread. Because remember…before this thread happened, these ideas were already out there for discussion. So, before the people who are discussing this topic in this thread ever gathered to discuss it in this thread, tons of people all over already had opinions about the topic.

I was just speaking in general, and even then, I was only going tit for tat with Ascenray, “Oh, you think there is anger out there about charm being something one can learn? Well, I submit the flip side, that there is anger that charm CAN’T be learned”

Our exchange wasn’t specifically about what posters *in **this **thread *are posting. The way Ascenray responded should show you that…he would have said, “No, you are wrong N,S. The anger **I **have mentioned is here in this thread, but the anger *you *have mentioned is not.”

He didn’t respond in that way, because he understood my meaning. That is why he said, “That brings us back to the OP”

When I started the OP, with my opinion all typed out, I had no clue what the posters in this thread would say…if they would agree or not, or get a little snippy or not… I didn’t know. I was really just speaking in general…not to any particular poster in this thread.

I feel my lack of communication skillz really kicking in, because I honestly don’t understand our interaction at this point.

For instance, you said this:

[QUOTE=TB]
People here are saying that there is nothing wrong with picking up some tips. No one is recommending that socially awkward guys go spend thousands of dollars on seminars. It’s no less manufactured than the terrible problem of cat juggling in The Jerk.
[/QUOTE]

My OP is saying that I believe that PUA seminars or books or movies or shows or whateverthehellever are scams. If someone spends money on it, they are being duped. If you don’t disagree, then we are on the same page and that is awesome.

If no one in this thread is angry, and no one disagrees with me, then that is exactly what I want. If I mistakenly thought there exists posters on this board or any board ever are angry, then I’m sure I was mistaken then. I really only want to be clear about my opinion about the scammery of it all. I don’t know how I’ve gotten so deep into that exchange with Ascenray. I didn’t really think that statement was going to hit any nerves at all. I thought it was a brief exchange between us that we both understood for what it is.

But again, I can’t stress this enough…I concede that maybe no one is angry about anything at all. Great. I just don’t want to be confused anymore, this topic is starting to exhaust me.
ETA: Haaaaa! After rambling incoherently for paragraphs and paragraphs, it occurs to me *now *what I should be saying to you…"Tokyo, I don’t believe you are angry about not being able to purchase charm from con artists. I am sure you are very nonchalant about the whole subject in general. I am sorry I implied otherwise about you or any other poster in this thread.

217

Do these PUA methods really teach guys not to take no for an answer? Because that didn’t seem to be the case in his show. As I remember, he mostly taught guys to watch a woman’s body language. If she expresssed disinterest, then they were to back off.

I mean it’s pretty obvious from people’s posts. Other women see a guy getting shot down and it devalues him. He just looks like some desperate sleezeball looking to hit anything that moves.

I can only surmise if a guy gives off a creepy vibe using PUA techniques, he’s doing it wrong.

I don’t know. Then you tell me why people hate on PUA. The only reasons I can think of is that most people don’t like being thought of as a “mark” being manipulated.

218

You said earlier]

Is there anger or not? What exactly are you trying to say here?

Color me confused. I was responding to a statement which I took to mean you felt there was anger in this thread. Or that someone else was suggesting there was anger in the thread. Or something. At this point, I’m not exactly sure what you are saying.

And, as I said earlier, this is a storm in a teapot. Manufactured rage over something stupid and on the same level as The Rules, which is over-the-top but not the end of the world as we know it.

219

I think people hate on PUA because it appears to use terms and attitude that are derogatory to the “targets”, who are defined more as marks to be exploited than as people. Looking at people in that manner is usually a bad sign for the character of the person who does so in other contexts.

Sure, most human interactions are, at base, mostly self-interested; but that “mostly” is an important qualifier. Naked self-interest is an ugly thing. Even in the case of hooking-up for sex.

Moreover, it is in any even wholly unnecessary. The ‘techniques’ of PUA appear to the outside observer, generally, to the extent they work, simply common sense gussied up as a set of secrets. Anyone who makes a real effort at presenting themselves well, being sociable, and being aware of both verbal and non-verbal cues can flirt and date … it is true guys often do not take these elementary steps, and to the extent that PUA gets them to do so, it will “work”, but there is no reason to believe that someone mastering the “techniques” will do better than the same person simply taking the elementary steps outlined above (which are, acknowledged, harder to do in practice than in theory).

Someone upthread mentioned dieting - it’s a similar case: easy to know what to do (eat less), often hard to do in practice, and to the extent some special “dieting technique” gets one to eat less, it will of course “work”. However, where the “diet technique” involves convincing oneself that one is a purely self-interested being and to act like those around you are simply objects to be manipulated, it appears somewhat harmful to the user - in that it makes him or her a worse person (while, if it convinces him or her to “eat less” it will of course “work”). Another diet that does exactly the same thing (that is, make the user “eat less”) without the negativity would be better for them. At least, better for their character.

220

No? Yes? I swear to god, I don’t know anymore. I assumed that yes, there was, because people do seem to have strong opinions on the PUA matter, and there were several mentions of anger and vitriol in this thread. I was just responding in kind, I guess, I didn’t think about it. My SINCEREST apologies if I implied that you or anyone else posting to this thread is angry.

I really didn’t feel there was anger in this thread, initially. OTHERS mentioned anger and vitriol in this thread, and then I jumped on that bandwagon. I shouldn’t have done that. I swear to sweet Jesus pushing aside the rock, I don’t really care if anyone in this thread is angry.

Ok, what storm? What “Manufactured Rage”? My OP had no rage. I stated very matter of factly that the PUA thing is a scam. I only bothered to make the OP because the thread that I was in, when a poster seemed to support PUA as a valid deal, was off topic. I didn’t want to hijack that thread. That’s the reason for this thread. Not any rage.

Listen, please accept my apology for implying that you or anyone else in this thread have anything more than a very casual, shrugging, aloof indifference to the pyramid scheme that is PUA.

I’m backing away from this conversation, hoping that my apology and concession is understood and accepted.