An excellent point.
Not sure what the punk parents have been doing. The mind boggles.
Unfortunately, these days far too many parents are under the impression that they alone should have any power to deal with their children and by god, they’re not going to allow anyone else to tell them how to do it!
While at the same time being utterly clueless about how to raise their children and uninterested in spending the time and effort to do it properly.
Back in my day, norinew would have gone not to the Police, but to those boy’s fathers, who would have beaten those kids within a half an inch of their lives and made sure that those boys didn’t even look funny at mudgirl or any other younger girl again upon pain of it being repeated. Whether or not this is good parenting or counter-productive is not really the point I’m trying to make. The point is that parents used to care enough to listen to other parents about what their own kids were doing and do something about it.
Nowadays you seldom see anything but outrage at the idea that someone else might have a problem with their little snowflake.
I’ve been following this thread with the utmost admiration for Norinew’s and Mudgirl’s actions.
Now that the conversation has shift to the Punks’ parents, I have something more worthwhile to share than simply more virtual hugs and support (Though, you have always had that, Norinew.)
My daughter was hassled repeatedly for sex by a boy in her class, he exposed himself to her several times. I became aware of it after the fact - maggenkid (for want of a better name) had gone directly to her teacher who dealt with the situation swiftly and well.
Because I didn’t know of the sexual aspect, I kept telling maggenkid to be polite when this boy wanted to talk to her as we were walking home together. She was clearly uninterested, but I felt she should at least be courteous. He took that as proof she was into a relationship. His mother encouraged him.
Maggenkid asked me to come into her class one morning - she showed me the note the boy had given her the previous afternoon “DEAR MAGGENKID, I WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. COME TO MY HOUSE TOMORROW AFTER SCHOOL - LOVE BRAT”
I laughed, because after all, both kids were five years old!
Maggenkid’s teacher did not laugh. She told me to talk to maggenkid about the other things that had been going on. While I still had my temper under control, I spoke to the brat’s mother and showed her the note.
“Oh, he’s so mature.” she said, glowing with pride. “Most kids wouldn’t even know what sex was at his age.” She heaved a sigh over her little man. “So, will maggenkid be coming over to our house this afternoon?”
No, maggenkid didn’t go there. She wasn’t required to be polite to the little shit after that either. She’s come through the experience with a clear idea of what she’ll put up with and how to deal with it.
I’d like to say that the mother learned from this, but she didn’t - she’s still actively encouraging her now nine year old boy to sexually harrass his chosen target in each of his classes. I feel sorry for him, he has a well known reputation around the school and neighbourhood for being a sick freak, where a decent parent could have taught him boundaries.
maggenpye, Wally Tango Foxtrot?!?!
Why on earth hasn’t anyone managed to make clear to bratmom that if her little darling doesn’t straighten up within a few short years he’s going to be going to school behind barbed wire, and more than likely come out of there with the label of sex offender?
Sorry, I know sometimes the stupid is that aggressively impenetrable, but ye gods…
I try not to think about what goes on in her head. I’ve reported above the most in depth conversation we ever had. The only other time we spoke was when she insisted that maggenkid come to his birthday party (a few weeks later) I said “No.” and walked away.
No doubt she posts me as an example of horrid parenting on other boards.
Like the OP’s punk kids’ parents, she honestly believes she’s doing the best she can for her son. She’s certainly doing more than just yelling from the porch. He is not a sexual predator, he is a mature young man - confident in his sexuality. The rest of the world should realise that.
Ugh. 5-year-old kids shouldn’t HAVE sexuality. Gross. If I’d come across that note, I would have sent it directly to Children Services, because there’s no way a five-year-old does that without having been exposed to some seriously inappropriate stuff in his life.
I considered that, but everything happened inside school and they (obviously) had a much better idea of what was going on with the boy than I did. The teacher kept the note in the end.
Like Norinew, there are official channels that I can take. I stuck with them. Also like Norinew, it’s a smallish town, the shit’s just as likely to stick to me and mine if I’m perceived to have overreacted.
The other parents and their kids are at fault. **Mudgirl ** and maggenkid did the right thing and know it. The system may be flawed and inadequate, but it’s the best we have.
It does distress me that the punk’s parents have been the kind of parents that they have. As I’ve said before, I wish I could believe that the kids will get the help they need. But I don’t believe it. So the best I can do is to protect my kid.
Thank you so much! I am already blessed beyond words to have wonderful children, and to have a wonderful community like this to turn to in difficult times.
Thanks to all of you for your support, in this thread, and in email and PMs!
Not exactly true. As has been mentioned elsewhere on these boards, children begin to get an idea of their own sexualities as young as three. As I understand it, it’s a very rudimentary, “there are kids like me and kids not like me” idea, but it exists. They wonder why little boys and little girls go to different bathrooms at preschool, and if no one tells them, they make up answers. Of course, they know nothing of such things as allure, attraction, seduction, etc., so they’re not sexual in the same context as adolescents are. But, according to at least one researcher, “(between birth and 6 years) sexual interests, curiosity, arousal and behavior are spontaneously expressed unless or until the child is taught to repress or inhibit her/his pleasure orientation.”
Understand, this argument is made in the vacuum of **Drain Bead’s ** post, and not in response to any other post.
But Drain Bead was responding to a specific event where the five year old was very sexually aware (confirmed by his mother), well beyond “I’ve got an outie and you don’t, neener neener”.
He knowingly asked another five year old child to engage in sex with him. That’s not normal for a five year old. Apparently he only asked nicely because she’d kneed him in the groin when he kept trying to kiss her.
Sorry, but unless you can find a survey that says five year old boys regularly force affection and request sex with the intent of following through- your idea of child sexuality has little to do with the reality Drain Bead was referring to.
(Heavy sigh) If you’ll check the link in my post you’ll see it isn’t my idea but that of Loretta Haroian, Ph.D. And I clearly said my post was in the vacuum of Drain Bead’s comment and DID NOT REFER TO ANY OTHER POST ON THIS THREAD!!! I probably should have edited his/her quote more tightly to exclude mention of a note, but I was only pointing out that five-year-olds do have sexuality. I didn’t even begin to imply that sexual predation was normal in kindergarteners. I simply cited an expert who posits that children are sexual beings in different ways almost from birth.
You really don’t need a crystal ball to predict problems for this child in life, do you? I wonder what planet the mother is from.
Oh right here, I’m sure. They run a little out of the way hotel. I’m sure one day little Norman will grow up to be a fine boy and loves his mother very much.
But you didn’t exclude that reference - and the post was about that note, since that was the reason s/he felt the boy had been sexualised (as apposed to the usual level of sexual awareness in a child of that age). The term sexuality was a direct quote of my earlier post.
I really don’t get your insistence on defending this point. We’re not claiming all boys are predators. If we really thought that then there would be no thread and no outrage - our daughters would be assaulted daily and we’d be telling them to accept it. But our daughters are not assaulted daily. We are not discussing normal pre-teen sexuality or behaviours.
Norinew is dealing with extreme examples of bad parenting - and I agree with your original position that the parents *should *have dealt with this, but they should have dealt with it long before Norinew’s daughter had to. They had already failed before those boys found themselves briefly alone with a smaller, weaker target.
**Norinew **is dealing with grace and dignity, where I know I still want slap someone four years after her child upset mine. Even though both daughters showed more responsibility and maturity than the boys who targeted them, still, Norinew and I are allowed to be pissed off that they were targeted at all.
Because we are **not ** dealing with normal child sexuality here.
Lobotomyboy63 & Chimera Sadly, he already has problems. I wish I had the generosity of spirit to wish him help for the future, but I just want the little freak to stay away from my kid. Luckily, she now has a posse of admirers and he can’t get near her.
Somewhere, several hundred posts ago, I mentioned the Hunt Report that Nixon commissioned or whatever. IIRC Nixon was a prude and wanted to show that sexual behavior on TV promoted it among children. What Hunt found, rather, was that children will imitate violent behavior—not sexual behavior. But can I find a cite on the web? No. 
I think mom is promoting that notion in the child. Somehow she’s rewarding it. I mean, I remember at six years old thinking that girls were wonderful, but sex never entered my mind. I didn’t think about sex; I had no idea there was such a thing, even. So I can speak to the infinite charm of a little girl to a little boy; I can’t remotely speak to what bratboy describes.
I feel I should clarify - he’s not in splendid isolation with his mother. He has a father and brothers at home. Whatever is going on there is either accepted or promoted by his whole family. The rumour mill is not grinding on either of his brothers (that I know of), just him. He is the youngest of the family, if that makes any difference.
And (Og help me) I completely understand his mother’s drive to defend her child no matter what. After all, I support maggenkid completely, it’s just that I *also *expect her to be responsible for her mistakes and to behave appropriately in public.
I don’t want to hijack this thread anymore. It’s meant to be about support for Norinew and Mudgirl, who so thoroughly deserve it. I honestly just meant to contribute that some parents don’t control their kids and **Mudgirl **was brilliant in her ability to handle the situation. Enough parenting for two families.
I have filed for restraining orders. Because there are two boys involved, I need one for each of them (Hey, Cumberland is broke, it’s gotta make money somewhere!)
For those of you who’ve felt moved to help out with this, thank you, thank you, thank you! Funds that were not needed in filing for restraining orders are being earmarked for co-pays on counseling (what our insurance doesn’t pay), and possibly for a civil case if it looks like it will go to that. Impossible to say right now.
Mudgirl will begin professional counseling tomorrow. I wouldn’t have waited this long, but I really wanted to find someone who would walk that fine line between making this too big a deal, and not making it big enough.
I know I sound like a broken record, but thank you all!! The emails, PMs and the support in this thread have been helpful beyond belief.
It probably makes a lot of difference. I was the youngest and I know how we get spoiled. But I couldn’t hold a candle to my nephew.
Bro and Sil had two boys; she miscarried a third. Being Catholics (he converted) they had never used any BC and I don’t know if they were “trying” but it looked like those two would be all. Then she got pg again.
Well they were delighted and the third boy was the most charming little tot. He barely cried; he was all smiles and just the sweetest kid ever. But along about the age of three, he started changing into a monster. They had tolerated so much that he decided none of the rules applied to him. He’d tell my father (his grandfather) to shut up, for instance, and Bro/Sil would just smile wanly. This was spiraling out of control when the strangest thing happened: Sil got pregnant again.
But for the first time, she had a girl. Well, the spoiling witnessed with the third child paled in comparison. She wrested the baton of being insufferable and carried the skill to new levels. Add to the mix that Sil was on the verge of menopause, so they knew this was the last they’d have…a final hurrah to childbearing.
As a consequence the third boy must have experienced a real baptism in fire. No longer the darling of the family, he had several helpings of humility. God forbid he should try to steal the limelight from Her Highness etc. It must have been bewildering to him.
Today, he is one of the nicest people you could meet. We’ve never talked about it but I suspect he feels he needs to make up for past sins. Fact is, he was just a product of his environment. Being a youngest child myself, I have some idea what it’s like, though my parents couldn’t afford to spoil me like his.
And this is just it: kids are mostly what parents make them and especially so when they’re very young. Even if they start off with a really sweet temperament, they’re very corruptible. So what happens when parents don’t even get involved?
IMO there are more “loaded guns” lying around for kids to play with. E.g. what’s up with “Parental advisory lyrics” to music? There were questionable songs when I was growing up but now it’s like an industry all its own. And the put things on US TV they never would have dreamed of showing a decade or two ago. Parents are allegedly enforcing that “viewer discretion” thing…yeah, right. Then you turn the kids loose in the public schools where they influence each other; after all, the most significant group to kids is other kids, the peer group.
In norinew’s case, maybe the parents will lose the kids to foster care. By the time they’re adolescents, the parents should have figured out how to keep them on a leash because at that age, they’re already rebellious anyway. It’s too bad for the boys that they were born to horridly ineffective parents, but I’d protect mudgirl and let the courts sort out the rest.
I know that one of the punks (the one with parents who do not have good parenting skills) had gone one your property (sidewalk). The other (11YO IIRC), I thought although I may be wrong, had stayed on the other side of the street with his mom and the dog, and did not go near your property, nor you or Mudgirl in the store. Is the RO for both boys due to something the police suggested or so neither can say you treated them differently?
Norinew you are doing a great job as mother. Thank you for the updates, please keep us informed – as it works for your life - not for our interests.
I feel better keeping this low-key. Check your PM.
Thank you for the kind words.