The punks who assaulted my daughter (long)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
101

Maastricht, IANAL so take this with a grain of salt. And I’m going by my layman’s understanding here of what the legal code is.

In NYS, at least, the records for ALL juvenile offenses are sealed when someone reaches majority. Usually at 18, though if they’re already in juvenile detention, the record may remain open until they turn 21. Once sealed the records are inaccessible without a court order, and in theory the juvenile offender’s record cannot affect his or her later life.

Alas, that clear distinction breaks down when one deals with sex offender registrations. I don’t know the exact laws, but I’ve heard serious proposals that the juvenile status of an offender shouldn’t be considered for registration. Since, in theory, it’s not a punishment, it’s a warning to the community*. I don’t believe NYS law follows that theory, but it’s possible that norinew’s state may.

As for what the boys may suffer - I can’t say exactly, but if the one boy has as much of a record as norinew listed, I’d consider it likely that CPS will, even if no juvenile detention time is required for the crime, consider transferring custody of the child to someone else, perhaps a foster parent, or perhaps institutionalized care.

I am not the world’s biggest fan of CPS. I tend to think that the potential for abuses within the system is huge. I also am skeptical of the benefit that accrues to a child when lawyers spent more time fighting each other on the orders of their clients than trying to determine what might be in the best interests of the child. I don’t mean that as a slam of anyone working for CPS, even. It’s just the nature of bureaucracies combined with the adversarial court system that has to be involved in these situations. Because of my opinions, I’d normally consider almost any action before I’d step back and call the police or CPS for a situation.

But this situation with mudgirl is so egregious, IMNSHO, I just don’t see what lesser option could be considered. Even though I fear for the consequences for the boys involved. It’s far from ideal, but both from a straight moral standpoint, and from the stand point of norinew’s interests and personal obligations: mudgirl’s interests and safety trump those of the boys. By a wide margin.

ETA: I am reading the comments about “lives destroyed” as more a measure of the thinking that prison often creates criminals rather than rehabilitating them. And while I’ve only spent a few hours in a juvie facility, I have to admit the environment is bleak, to put things mildly. I have no question that juvie can hone an anti-social child/teen towards a more criminal outlook. Which simply adds to my mixed feelings.

102

So the difference is not what they did, but that one (not both, as some posters have inaccurately said) was two years older than your definition of an age of responsibility? And what’s with all the talk of lead bricks and sturdy fillet knives? All that’s missing are the torches and pitchforks – it’s a mob mentality that attached to almost every sex assault case I ever covered. This has now become a criminal case, and the one thing that is most needed in a criminal case is facts. I sincerely hope the police and prosecutors are more interested in getting facts and acting on those facts than they are in appeasing a hysterical public.

103

Poor choice of words on my part. But what I was trying to say is that it’d be more helpful to norinew if people focus on supporting her rather than six pages of telling you you’re wrong, and I know I was involved there too. We could argue about those things at least three other sections of the board. Of course as far as that goes it would also behoove you to stop digging already.

104

Oh bother - I just realized that even after editing I left a dangling asterisk back in post #101.

Here’s what I meant to add to that post.
*Which is just one more reason I find sex offender registry laws so offensive and egregious.

105

Cheek, meet tongue. An expression of anger at the shear outrage of this. Sexual assault on an eight year old, by someone 6 bloody years older than them is serious, its upsetting, and its rage-inducing. There’s one thing “playing doctor” or whatever, and then there’s this. And this certainly wasn’t innocent or harmless; the boys probably knew exactly what they were doing. Why do you think they led her to a secluded area where no adults were around and the rest of the kids had gone?

106

In Ohio, if the perp is 13 years old at the time of the offense, registration is not an option. The 14-year-old MAY have to register as a sex offender, potentially for life. Laws like this are popping up across the nation in order for states to get federal funding for Amber Alert systems.

107

norinew, just wanted to add my support. I hope that you are able to draw strength from all the support here and channel it into your family. You’re a fantastic mom and they are lucky to have you!

108

Marley - Thanks, you’re right, I was typing with emotion and not common sense. This whole thread is upsetting me - my daughter is 22, but she was 8 once and I’m projecting myself here…

109

Thanks. I really do draw strength from here. In a sense, you guys are “the place I can go when I can’t go anyplace”, y’know? I can’t really go to my family. Most of them are of the “ignore it and it will go away” frame of mind. My IRL friends? Most of them are right here in town, and on the advice of the police officer, I’m not really talking it up around town. I’m not hiding it or lying about it, but I’m certainly not publicizing it!

The Dope is where I have left to go. I’ve been a registered Doper for over five years (give or take, I forget), and a lurker for about eight years. You folks really are my community. Many of you, I consider honest-to-goodness friends. A number of you, I’ve been privileged to meet in person and/or develop email relationships with.

I think the support here is more precious than any of you can know.

It’s an emotional kind of situation. That’s one of the reasons it’s so hard for me to sit here and think “what is the right thing to do in the interests of my child”?

But I certainly understand looking at the situation from an emotional standpoint.

110

Absolutely agree that involving the police was the correct thing to do.

But in the interests of accuracy:

Not so true.

If you’re a mandated reporter under the law, this is true. In the case of the OP, it’s most likely true, since as the child’s mother she owes a duty of care to the child that probably would encompass reporting this.

But it’s not correct to generalize that duty to all persons. If you were passing by on the sidewalk and happened to see this scene taking place, you would have no general duty to report it. (Obviously, a particular state might impose such a duty; in general, though, none exists).

If Diogenes had said: “If you knew your 8-year old girl was sexually assaulted and did not call the cops, you would be guilty of a crime yourself,” he’d most likely be correct. But merely knowing that an right-year-old girl was sexually assaulted isn’t necessarily enough.

111

Bolding mine
Do I still have the duty to stop them?

112

I suppose in this instance, a “me, too” post isn’t such a bad thing.

Norine, I am another person who is so sorry that this happened to your daughter, and who is impressed with how you have handled the situation so far.

I guess this is as good time as any to say that I appreciate you as a poster in general. You are one of the people who make the SDMB special.

113

Generally speaking, no. NOw, if it’s your kid as either the victim or the prepetrator, then the equation changes. And it may be that your state has specific rules mandating that ANYONE who sees a crime has to report it, but absent those special circumstances, no – legally you can pass by and do nothing.

114

Uh. . .wow. Thanks.

This kind of post always surprises me, as I usually assume myself to be a poster who generally “flies under the radar”. Yes, I’m prolific (hey, I’ve got a big mouth!), but I don’t think I’m really considered an “expert” on anything. I’ve never been pitted. Hell, I’ve never even been “smacked down” by a Mod. I have no claim to fame here. But I do consider you all (and I do mean “all”, even the ones I disagree with) part of my ‘e-family’. And I do appreciate you taking the time to chime in.

Bricker, thank you, as always, for adding your legal expertise to the matter. Needless to say, at the time of the ‘alleged incident’, I wasn’t really all that concerned with legalities, or what it was my duty to report or not report. I was concerned with what was in my daughter’s best interest. As a grown woman who was repeatedly sexually abused in childhood, and as a woman who told her mother this (when I was about 12) and was told by my mother to “avoid being around [him]”, I wasn’t going to do that to my baby. I felt I owed it to her (and in retrospect to all the little kids in the neighborhood) to take this allegation seriously and do what I could about it.

As I’ve said before, I, myself, have stopped short of labeling it “rape”; I’ll leave that up to the legal community. My first obligation is to protect my child, and I’m doing that as well as I can.

115

I can logically understand the need for such a statute, but still, it makes me sad. :frowning:

I cannot imagine witnessing a potentially grievous crime, sexual in nature or not, and not reporting it. I respect the wish of people who want to “keep out of other people’s business”, but if I see/hear stuff I think is quite criminal in nature, I’m reporting it.

116

It depends. Are you a parent of the victim? Do you have some other duty via some other relationship (contractual, statutory, etc.) which the law recognizes? Even in the UK where a cop asks you for help to detain a fleeing criminal, one is not required to do so if that puts oneself at risk (or wording to such effect). In general, I agree with Bricker that no such duty to stop them, in general, exists.

117

norinew, let me add my voice to the chorus. I’m so sorry that this happened, but I’m also very impressed by how well you and your daughter are handling it. I know it’s already been said, but mudgirl will get past this and I really think that any emotional trauma she’s suffered will be short-lived. My mother is also a survivor of long-term childhood sexual abuse, and she just about fell apart when I was nearly raped a few years ago. I think it was actually harder on her than it was on me.

I hope your family has a fun weekend, and keep us updated as you are able.

118

I can completely understand why the law is written this way - depending on the people and the crime in question, you might be putting yourself or others in danger. Or you could misunderstand the situation and be interfering in something legitimate.

Still, I hope that most people in this particular circumstance would find it in their moral code to intervene. :frowning:

119

If you want one, all you have to do is ask. :wink: Anything to help, you know.

120

If you want one, all you have to do is ask. :wink: Anything to help, you know.