The punks who assaulted my daughter (long)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
121

[QUOTE=Risha]

Still, I hope that most people in this particular circumstance would find it in their moral code to intervene. :frowning:
[/QUOTE]

Of course. It’s hard to imagine the stone heart one would have to have to not do something…

David Cash comes to mind. He was the man who saw Jeremy Strohmeyer sexually assaulting 7-year-old Sherrice Iverson in a Nevada casino restroom. Cash left without notifying anyone, even after Strohmeyer later told Cash that he had killed the young girl. Despite widespread outrage, Cash was never charged with a crime, for the simple reason that he couldn’t be… he hadn’t participated in the crime, and his only offense was not reporting it. Nevada would later pass a law requiring reporting sexual assaults on children… but fail to pass a law adding any significant penalties to the failure to report.

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[QUOTE=The Weird One]
norinew, let me add my voice to the chorus. I’m so sorry that this happened, but I’m also very impressed by how well you and your daughter are handling it. I know it’s already been said, but mudgirl will get past this and I really think that any emotional trauma she’s suffered will be short-lived. My mother is also a survivor of long-term childhood sexual abuse, and she just about fell apart when I was nearly raped a few years ago. I think it was actually harder on her than it was on me.

I hope your family has a fun weekend, and keep us updated as you are able.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t doubt that, at least at this point, she’s handling this better than I am.
As for a fun weekend, I’ve had a “girl’s day out” planned with some of my close friends for about a month now. I was tempted to cancel, but then I thought "to what end? If stuff doesn’t happen today, it won’t happen until Monday, her father will be with her all day tomorrow, and dammit, I need a ‘day out’ ", so I didn’t cancel. Sunday will be a “family day”, with a picnic planned at a local state park with one of mudgirl’s friends (also planned before any of this happened). So, yeah, hopefully it’ll be a good weekend.

Thanks for adding your voice to the overwhelmingly broad chorus of support.

Ummmm, yeah, I feel kind of. . .invisible around here. Could you please, as a Mod, call me out for something? :wink:

123

norinew, please continue to post as much as you feel comfortable with.

I would also like to offer up one piece of advice. Take it for what it’s worth, I’m certainly not trying to hijack the thread. Feel free to disagree…this is just my opinion.

I would submit that if mudgirl seems to be handling this okay, she may not need professional counseling right away. I’m not saying that she may not need it in the future, but her feelings NOW are normal, and I’ll bet they’re along the five stages of grief…denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. If she’s handling everything okay, then you and her family may be able to help her along. Of course, if she’s waking up screaming and wetting the bed six months from now, get her to a counselor. But it may be a good idea to learn to get strength and support from one’s family initially (which I’m sure you’re practically burying her in :slight_smile: ) rather than rush her off to someone to help her deal with normal feelings.

I guess what I’m saying is don’t assume this experience has scarred her for life. She’s got a good foundation, she knew enough to yell Time Out and come tell you. She’s got a good head on her shoulders.

124

[QUOTE=ivylass]
norinew, please continue to post as much as you feel comfortable with.

I would also like to offer up one piece of advice. Take it for what it’s worth, I’m certainly not trying to hijack the thread. Feel free to disagree…this is just my opinion.

I would submit that if mudgirl seems to be handling this okay, she may not need professional counseling right away. I’m not saying that she may not need it in the future, but her feelings NOW are normal, and I’ll bet they’re along the five stages of grief…denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. If she’s handling everything okay, then you and her family may be able to help her along. Of course, if she’s waking up screaming and wetting the bed six months from now, get her to a counselor. But it may be a good idea to learn to get strength and support from one’s family initially (which I’m sure you’re practically burying her in :slight_smile: ) rather than rush her off to someone to help her deal with normal feelings.

I guess what I’m saying is don’t assume this experience has scarred her for life. She’s got a good foundation, she knew enough to yell Time Out and come tell you. She’s got a good head on her shoulders.
[/QUOTE]

Being well aware of what you are dealing with right now, I take this with an extra grain of sincerity!

I agree, I don’t want to traumatize her more than is necessary. Really, I’m waiting for professional guidance from CPS or some such. I’m just a Mom, doing the best I can. I’ve praised her for handling the situation perfectly. But I’m just a “human being, being human”, in the words of a poet I once read.

If CPS seems to think she needs counseling, I’ll probably take their advice on that. I would hope that a good counselor would follow my daughter’s lead, and not traumatize her even more.

She (mudgirl) had trouble sleeping last night. Naturally, as a Mom, I wondered if it was really because it was hot in her room (we don’t have central air), or was it because she is troubled?

It’s a bitch, trying to ‘read’ these clues. I try my best to let her know I am here if she needs me, and yet, trying to keep things as normal as possible so that she doesn’t let this one unpleasant experience ‘define’ her (unless, of course, it defines her as someone who knows when to call a time-out, who knows when to use “No, Go, Tell”, who knows the difference between right and wrong. . .)

Again, as I’ve said, I’m walking a fine line here. I’m looking to you (very smart) folks as guidance, as well as the professionals from CPS and the crime investigation unit.

At this moment, mudgirl is sound asleep on the sofa (as I said, she didn’t sleep well last night) with the animated version of Charlotte’s Web playing in the background (it’s one of her comfort movies).

Here’s to hoping she’s having sweet dreams.

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I really hope she’s having sweet dreams as well!

126

[QUOTE=norinew]

She (mudgirl) had trouble sleeping last night. Naturally, as a Mom, I wondered if it was really because it was hot in her room (we don’t have central air), or was it because she is troubled?

[/QUOTE]

It could be both. She could very well be troubled. But right now…that’s normal. This just happened. She’s going to have a rough patch. And I would take cues from her and don’t baby her. I’m assuming she still has chores to do?

She’s a good kid. Until she shows you that she’s having problems dealing with this, treat this as a Bad Thing, but a Temporary Thing that will get better with time.

Hugs to the mudgirl…and pop in *Mulan *next. That’s another strong girl!

127

[QUOTE=norinew]
I don’t doubt that, at least at this point, she’s handling this better than I am.
[/QUOTE]

Now I’m not seeking to be pitted here, so I’ll state this first. I composed it once before at length and then deleted it.

If this were my daughter, it would be necessary to put me in protective custody - for the protection of those boys. And I would hope and pray that I had a wife like you strong enough to deal with this without me, because although I am generally the most rational and reasonable person I know - I would not be able to be that person in this case.

Having said that: I think the greater part of the damage that children recieve from incidents comes not from the actual incident, but from observing the reactions of the adults around them, and the way that they are TOLD they should react, think and feel.

Not that this is not a big deal, because it most definitely is. Just saying that the best course of action for the long term mental health of the child is not to psychologically coerce them into being traumatized.

So I salute you, and strongly suggest that the best course of action for your interaction with her is to support her and to positively reinforce her strength and calmness at this point.

The last thing you want to do is make this whole thing so violently traumatic that she is never able to live a normal life or have future relationships with men because of how traumatized everyone around her is trying to convince her she is.

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[QUOTE=norinew]
At this moment, mudgirl is sound asleep on the sofa (as I said, she didn’t sleep well last night) with the animated version of Charlotte’s Web playing in the background (it’s one of her comfort movies).

Here’s to hoping she’s having sweet dreams.
[/QUOTE]

That really made me cry. She is just a baby, and she’s done so well.

mudgirl, if you ever read this, know that you are one tough cookie. I hope my kids can be that smart if anything ever happens to them.

129

norinew, I believe your instincts with mudgirl are good.

I am also afraid that any hopes that she’ll be able to treat this as just a bad incident that she handled well, without getting her any extensive counseling is likely to be in vain.

And the thing that pisses me off, and makes me mad at the world, is that my conclusion is not based on anything she might be feeling now. Nor because you could have possibly handled the situation any better. It’s because, willyenilye this is going to become a huge event in her mind, simply because of all the unavoidable attention that will be focused on it, and her memory of it, before it’s allowed to rest in the past. Again, I want to emphasize this prediction is not meant to be any kind of criticism of you, your actions, or even how the officials will be handling this.

Just look at the events from mudgirl’s point of view - when this happened she was taken to the police station, for a long time, and even had to talk to a policeman (or woman) alone. Describing what happened, and being asked to be as complete and precise as she can be.

And this is going to be repeated time and time again. First the CPS investigator. Then I imagine the C3I will be next with their own investigator. The DA’s office may or may not need their own interview with mudgirl. I’d expect at least one defense appointed psychological exam of mudgirl’s state of mind, as well. Especially focusing on her state of mind at the time of the incident.

I believe that the unavoidable effect of all this, will be that mudgirl is going to end up convinced that what happened to her is a big deal. And from there, it’s going to be a short mental trip to thinking she did something to deserve it, or to thinking that she’s damaged from it, or any of several other equally damaging modes of thinking or self-assessment.

And this assessment is without factoring the possibility that some of her mutual friends/acquaintances with the boys may blame her for what happen. Or that the families of the boys try to organize smear campaigns. :frowning:

In the long run, I’m afraid that I expect that mudgirl will need counseling. I don’t think you should be forcing her to talk about things more than you already have, except to let her know she’s not in trouble and that she will have to talk about things again with some other people. Emphasize that you love her, believe her, trust her, and that she’s not in trouble.

But expect there will come times when she doubts all of those things. :frowning:

My advice remains to keep things as low key as possible, while you wait for the CPS investigator to visit and you have a chance to ask for more educated guidance. But I think it is unreasonable to expect that you’ll be able to handle this without making sure that mudgirl gets some counseling.
I believe that what’s going to be happening with you and mudgirl in the future is going to be very, very rough. It’s just better than the effects of doing nothing. Which is a damned cold comfort to me, right now.

On preview: Chimera, I don’t disagree with the position you’re taking, that mudgirl will assign an importance to this event based on the reactions of the adults around her to the incident. But I think you have grossly underestimated the amount of attention that will be focused on this incident simply by the nature of investigating and prosecution.

130

[QUOTE=OtakuLoki]
On preview: Chimera, I don’t disagree with the position you’re taking, that mudgirl will assign an importance to this event based on the reactions of the adults around her to the incident. But I think you have grossly underestimated the amount of attention that will be focused on this incident simply by the nature of investigating and prosecution.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think I underestimate it, but perhaps I do. Thanks for making the point.

It comes down to how her parents and loved ones handle it then, mostly mom.

“They did something wrong, not you, and this is the way the Legal System works. It’s a pain in the ass. Be strong, don’t let yourself be damaged by this and we’ll move on to another day.”

is a lot better response for her long term mental health than

“How are you? Are you sure you’re ok?” repeated every few minutes, interspersed with being endlessly told how horrible this is, blah, blah, blah.

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[QUOTE=ivylass]
It could be both. She could very well be troubled. But right now…that’s normal. This just happened. She’s going to have a rough patch. And I would take cues from her and don’t baby her. I’m assuming she still has chores to do?

She’s a good kid. Until she shows you that she’s having problems dealing with this, treat this as a Bad Thing, but a Temporary Thing that will get better with time.

Hugs to the mudgirl…and pop in *Mulan *next. That’s another strong girl!
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, just yesterday, she was expressing a non-desire (is that a word?) to clean her room. I pulled a “Mom” and told her she doesn’t really have a choice! Yes, I’m trying very hard to treat this as a “momentary glitch” that will pass.

Having said that: I think the greater part of the damage that children recieve from incidents comes not from the actual incident, but from observing the reactions of the adults around them, and the way that they are TOLD they should react, think and feel.
[/quote]

This is a concern of mine. I can control the way I react, but not the reactions of CPS and such. We’ll just have to see.

I’m trying my best to avoid that. Don’t know yet how successful I’ll be yet.

132

norinew, you’re certainly on the right track. I just wanted to make sure you had a clear view of some of the potential pitfalls. Keep on going as you have been, you’re doing great!
Chimera, I agree completely with your post #129.

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{{{{{norinew}}}}}

{{{{{mudgirl}}}}}

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[QUOTE=norinew]
This is a concern of mine. I can control the way I react, but not the reactions of CPS and such. We’ll just have to see.
[/QUOTE]
You certainly can tell CPS your plan for her well being before you allow them to talk to her and what you expect them NOT to do and why. You can also do this with any therapist that she may have before they even have their first appt. together.

You may not see it as being strong, because you just did what you thought was right. But it certainly wasn’t easy, and you certainly are a very strong lady.

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[QUOTE=miamouse]
You certainly can tell CPS your plan for her well being before you allow them to talk to her and what you expect them NOT to do and why. You can also do this with any therapist that she may have before they even have their first appt. together.
[/QUOTE]

That’s what I got back on-line to suggest. Talk to CPS and anyone else who needs to deal with her on this matter and make sure that they know that you do not want THEM traumatizing her through their words and actions. That they should not be pushing her to be upset or acting injured, nor should they be telling her, directly or indirectly, that she is damaged.

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[QUOTE=Sunrazor]
I know this is gonna’ get me pitted, but I have to say it.

I think calling the police was an over-reaction. …Get a grip…
[/QUOTE]

Wow. I can’t even begin to tell you how incredibly WRONG YOU ARE. My mother is an attorney who specializes in representing abused children. She’s worked in this field for 30 years and I take her expertise over your “news reporter” knowledge any day. I recently went through a not-as-severe but similar situation with something involving my son (as the victim). When I told my mom about it, she had a lot of advice. All of it involved telling the police. She said that statistically, my son was not the only victim of this person. Either this guy has done it to other kids or would do it in the future, and that it tends to escalate to worse and worse things. She talked to a therapist friend of hers who worked with CPS for 20-30 years investigating sexual abuse cases and has spent the last 15 years or so providing therapy for adolescent sex offenders. SHE said go straight to the cops. In our case it ended up being a false alarm, thank god.

The bottom line is that if you were to go into the prisons and find the child molesters and look into their past, this is the stuff they were doing when they were 14. This is NOT normal behavior. This is NOT just kids messing around. This is a HUGE HUGE HUGE RED FLAG that something is seriously wrong with those kids, and the statistics do not bear out the idea that this will be a one-time incident. The statistics are massively in favor of these kids going on to do this again, and then do worse.

We aren’t in the pit so I can’t say what I really want to say, but the advice you’ve given here is so far beyond ignorant that I’m shaking as I type this. It’s people like you who are the reason so many child molesters and rapists get away with it as long as they do–because people don’t REPORT IT. How would norinew feel if she didn’t go to the cops, and in a few years when they’re 17 or 18 one of those boys ends up raping somebody? Her getting them into the system could put a wall in that path that they’re going down, and save a lot of other people from becoming their victims. The U.S. has mandatory reporting laws for a reason.

I’ll echo Boyo Jim here, too. If she calls the police each time her daughter is molested, that’s a bad thing?? We are sooooo not talking about a teenage boy copping a feel on his teenage date.

As for your next post, SHE HAD A GLASS OF WINE. And took the prescription that has been prescribed for her to handle stressful situations. For you to imply that she’s abusing drugs and/or alcohol is so far beyond reality that I’m reeling.

I realize that right now norinew needs support more than she needs me yelling at you, but I feel it’s important for people to realize how serious this kind of thing is, and hope that if anyone reading this thread should ever be unfortunate enough to encounter a similar situation, they’ll realize why they MUST report it.

[QUOTE=Jolly Roger]
I’m curious, and i realize this has nothing to do with the matter at hand…but why do you call her Mudgirl? Just curious.
[/QUOTE]

This is why.

norinew, please email me.

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{{{Norine}}}
{{{Mudgirl}}}

I’m so sorry this happened. You did good, though…and you’re doing good ongoing.

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[QUOTE=jayjay]
{{{Norine}}}
{{{Mudgirl}}}

I’m so sorry this happened. You did good, though…and you’re doing good ongoing.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much! The overwhelming support here means a lot, but even more so, the support of the Dopers I actually have the pleasure of knowing!

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[QUOTE=norinew]
Thank you so much! The overwhelming support here means a lot, but even more so, the support of the Dopers I actually have the pleasure of knowing!
[/QUOTE]

It’s very different when you know the victim, and the victim’s family. I’ve never been quite as affected by something like this when it was a stranger I’d never met and I read about it in the newspaper. It’s very different…

140

Good lord, norinew. I’ve kept reading this thread, and been so boggled at some of it. I really didn’t (and sorta still don’t) know what to say.

In the end, good for you for how you handled it. And lots of support to the mudgirl. I’m so sorry it happened, but it sounds like you’re doing the best you can with a horrid situation.