I second that.
Wow, I’m surprised at how many folks are less enthusiastic. I guess having the books virtually memorized helped my enjoyment of the experience, though.
The Mumakil were on the battlefield in the books, too – I remember after the fact, Sam being disappointed to learn that there had been a great number of Mumakil at the siege of Minas Tirith, but they had all been destroyed. So say what you will about PJ, that again was an accurate detail.
One thing I noticed that they did to actually not make the movie longer…unlike the books, Sam did not put on the Ring to conceal himself. Thus, he does not become a Ringbearer and qualifies to sail to the Undying Lands. It would have added another ending otherwise.
One thing I’ve found from my experiences on the net is that there exists a class of people who try to create for themselves an air of detached intellectualism by being overly critical of things that “the masses” consider great. Not saying that the particular people here are part of that class, but what I AM saying is that no matter how good something is, you will find SOME people who will react to it by saying “Ehh, it was all right. Could have been better.”
I may get whaled on for saying such, but I went into all three movies without having a clue what happens in the books. I think I would like to read them someday, but I’ve never been much for epic fantasy reading; the characters get all jumbled up in my head (“wait, what’s the difference between Sauron and Sauroman?”) and I don’t have enough of an imagination for that sort of thing to really enjoy the books. I think that there are a lot of people like that, but who would be afraid to speak up.
That said… I do thoroughly enjoy the movies and appreciate them as film simply based on Tolkien’s ideas (note that they are not called “Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings”, etc.) Here is what the one of the “average masses” thought of RotK.
First of all, I didn’t understand the palantir until reading this thread. I thought its only significance was that something important would happen at Gondor, but I didn’t really grasp what that could be. I realized after the movie was over that I had no idea what the hell happened with Pippen and the ball-thingy. I really think that it wouldn’t have been too hard to add in a simple, two-minute scene with Denethor playing with his palantir, to explain it for the simple movie-goers who don’t plan to invest in the EE.
As Kelsonk mentioned, I had no idea what the ending meant. I waited until after the movie and then finally fessed up, asking why on earth did Frodo have to get on the boat? And where was the boat going? And why should I care? I still don’t fully grasp it; I suppose that should be an inventive for me to try to wade through the source material 
The whole love-story with Aragorn and Arwen seemed completely underplayed to me. Perhaps in the book it has as minor a role as it does in the film, but I couldn’t shake the feeling that there was more there that they weren’t telling me. The scenes were vague and disconnected, and seemed wholly insignificant if it weren’t for the feeling that “there is more and I don’t know it.” I also didn’t like the treatment of Aragorn’s refusal of Eowyn; basically, he said “I don’t love you,” and she said, “Oh, ok.” Not very convincing at all.
I know that these criticisms may be put to rest with the EE and by, oh, say, reading the books. However, I think that the movies as released in theatres should be able to stand on their own. LOTR is a very complicated and intricate work - that much I know - and PJ accomplishes a difficult task by adapting it. Still, it’s as though he came so close and then missed the mark by a few millimeters.
I also want to add, however, that I came away from this movie with a greater understanding of the story than I did with FotR and TTT. Why, I don’t know. Maybe it was because the book is an easier read, or because I already understood the back-story from the two other movies.
I’d wrap up by citing my favorite scences, but this post is already too long and besides, most of my favorites have been mentioned already!
Great movie, the best of the three.
Loved
Rohan Charge
The Army of the Dead
The White City
Nitpicks
I thought Pippen singing as the men faced the hopless charge was hack. I’ve seen this in PC game comercials.
The reunion scene with Frodo in bed and the rest of the fellowship coming in was a cop out and cheesy.
I don’t mind leving out the burning of the shire but two things about the end did bug me.
The ship leaving should have looked exactly like the smoke ship that Gandalf blew in FotR.
Sam, or Sam and Merry and Pippen should have sang The Road
Goes Ever On and On as they left the dock and that should be the end.
If anything, Jackson seriously overplayed the Aragorn/Arwen romance. In the books, Arwen makes exactly TWO appearance in the main story, and those are the first scene at Rivendell and the very end when she appears at Minas Tirith to marry Aragorn (the romance is fleshed out much more in one of the Appendices, but barely mentioned in the main narrative). They had to have some kind of romantic thread in a mass-market film, though, not to mention having to justify Liv Tyler’s salary, so they expanded her role quite a bit.
I saw it yesterday afternoon and unlike my reaction after leaving TTT, I felt completely satisfied. I can’t think of a better way to end the movie trilogy than what PJ managed to accomplish. I’m afraid I don’t have much to add to the discussion since my favorite plot points have been brought up already, but I just had to say that I absolultely loved the movie and can’t wait to see it again tonight with some other people.
For me, the best parts of the movie were:
Just about every Sam and Frodo moment. I don’t know the last time I cried so often in a movie, and I know I’ve never cried so much because of one character’s lines. All the scenes that were straight from the book had my eyes watering before I was even certain what scene was about to be played out.
The Charge of the Rohirrim. Just…gorgeous. 'Nough said.
The White City. Just how I imagined it would look.
Merry and Pippin. I always felt that the Scouring was the chapter that showed the hobbits really growing up, but that was cut. So PJ beefed up their roles in other parts of the story, and it worked perfectly.
Shelob had me cringing like I’ve never done before. I’m already afraid of spiders, and this thing was so big, scary, and real to me that I could barely contain myself. This was one of the parts that had my heart thumping during the movie.
Eowyn, the Witch King, Theoden, and Merry. I’m sad Theoden’s funeral was cut, but this scene is one I can’t complain about at all.
Faramir’s death charge with Pippin singing also moved me to tears. I really disliked the change in his character in TTT, but this was just perfect.
The scene at the Green Dragon was so cute and touching also. They have definitely changed in their year-long journey.
The scene at the Gray Havens was lovely, but it could have been explained a little better. And having Sam come home, just as he did in the books, was definitely the best way to end these movies.
The only things I didn’t have already been mentioned by others. Hopefully Denethor’s palantir is in the EE, as is the House of Healing. It all would be sad for Eowyn to watch Aragorn and Arwen together at the end if she was still in love with him. And, of course, the stupid Arwen’s fate business, but luckily it’s only mentioned once during the movie.
The greatest moment for me was Shelob’s stalking of Frodo after he (and I!) thought he’d escaped.
When I first read the book, I was thirteen, and I finished TTT at about midnight on a school night. “What the FUCK?!” I thought, when Frodo appeared dead at Shelob’s sting at the end of the book, and I immediately snatched up ROTK – only to find that it doesn’t return to Frodo and Sam’s story for a hundred or so pages. I saw dawn that morning :). Shelob’s attack is the single tensest scene for me in the trilogy.
So when Frodo escaped from the webs and got away, I was getting ready to be all mad at Peter Jackson. I mean, it’s SUCH a cool and scary scene, and here he was just changing it to make it a near-miss? Ooooh, that Jackson.
And then we see Shelob creeping up on Frodo from behind, in absolute silence, no music, Frodo unaware…
I’m sure I left white handprints on my wife’s arm :).
Daniel
Cyberpundit wrote:
As others have said, even in the film it is bittersweet, as the age of Elves is over, and more importantly, Frodo still has the Wound.
But in the books, it is even more bittersweet, as it is shown that Sauron is not The One Source of Evil. The hobbits must then contend with Sharkey and his minions. This, aside from being totally cool AND showing that the hobbits have grown from their adventures, also shows the universality of evil and shows that even the Shire is not immune from the influences of the War.
And above all, it shows that even though Sauron was defeated and Saruman deposed, the world is not free from evil, one must be ever-vigilant.
There are probably dozens of other threads that can explain in more detail than I will. Basically, the Elves, being immortal, once they tire of their existence in Middle-Earth, get on special ships and sail to the Undying Lands of Valinor, a road that is normally unavailable to mortals. Frodo and Bilbo, as Ring-bearers, have earned a special privilege among the Eldar to journey with them. However, Tolkein is careful to point out they will not gain immortality. Frodo has to go because his time in Middle-Earth is essentially over; the quest has “claimed his life,” as Galadriel prophecied. That’s a very watered-down explanation, for more insight one really needs to read the books, esp. The Silmarillion.
Absolutely not. The ending “I’m back” is the ONLY way it could have ended.
** lovelyluka **: Elrond repeatedly speaks of the ships and the Elves leaving Middle Earth. I understand you missed the reference, but it was there.
Actually, you can still see Orcs filing out of Minas Morgul below as they are entering the tunnel. Besides the climb took so long, they actually stop to sleep - that’s when Gollum divides Sam and Frodo
Count me as one of those die-hard Tolkien fans who, while able to find nits to pick, was truly moved, thrilled, and awed by this movie. This movie was damned good, better than we deserve either as Tolkien fans or as fans of action, fantasy, epic, or event movies of any and all kinds. Thank god for Peter Jackson, I say. And can you imagine what an extra hour of material will do for this already incredible film? I can’t wait untill next November for the extended edition.
Be glad you weren’t reading it when it was first published, LHoD–ROTK wasn’t released until two years after TTT!:eek:
I have to say that my reaction to the first half of the movie was decidedly mixed, but the second half (well, maybe not half, but everything after Pellanor) was brilliant. Brief impressions:
The Good:
Theoden and the charge of the Rohirrim: I was ready to start chanting “Death!” myself. I loved Theoden in TTT, and just about everything out of the actor’s mouth in this movie made me love him more.
Sam vs. Shelob: Holy crap she was creepy!
Gandalf at the retreat from Osgiliath: Yay for Shadowfax!
Eowyn vs. the Witch King: I only wish they’d kept her original lines.
Arwen’s dillema: I approve of any attempt to make her less like pretty wallpaper and more like an actual character.
Oliphants: Cool design.
Pippin’s big singing scene: Beautiful and haunting, and I had a lump in my throat when he started crying.
The Eagles: Not only are they awe inspiring, but the attempt to make them less of a massive deus ex machina is refreshing.
Praise them with great praise!: The coronation/wedding was outstanding. I love the look on Elrond’s face when he gives Arwen away. It’s as if the actor decided that if he was only going to be onscreen for five seconds, it might as well be the most agonized looking five seconds he’s ever had onscreen. Bowing to the hobbits, the white flowers…everything was great.
Explaining the origin of Gollum’s trademark sound: A nice touch that I don’t think was in the book. I also like the way every movie has begun with a flashback to important events. A good choice of place to include Gollum’s backstory that I never would have thought of. Although I do wish we knew why Frodo and Gandalf seem to know it in this version.
The Gray Havens: What can I say? I cried.
The Bad:
Arwen’s illness: Lame. When the world will be destroyed and the girl lost if he loses anyway, Aragorn doesn’t need any more motivation.
Jarring editing: I was starting to get confused for the first half of the movie, and I already knew the story pretty well. Not only that, but there was so much jumping around between plotlines that I just wanted to grab the camera and yell “Stay in one place for awhile damn you!”
Gimli the comedian: I thought his jokes were dumb in the first two movies, but this took the cake. Not only that, but it seemed like if there was any possible moment where a joke from Gimli could ruin the drama of a scene, it was included. ARRGH!
Hi Treebeard, Bye Treebeard!: So much for Saruman the mighty wizard. “oh he’s got no power anymore” is a total copout. Would it have killed them to cut out 30 seconds of Oliphant combat to wrap up this plot thread?
Sauron’s eye is apparently a giant spotlight: Okay, okay, there was no other way to do this, but I just found myself giggling. At least until Frodo got pinned by it.
Green light shooting from Minas Morgul: Just…why?
Minas Tirith the mighty fortress: It’s built into the side of a MOUNTAIN so why does everything start crumbling when a few boulders hit?
Gandalf’s old man smackdown: Weird. Disturbing. Out of character.
The Ugly:
Denethor’s loud eating: Eeeew.
The Host of the Dead: Just thought the green glowstick warrior look was cheesy.
Overall, I thought that there was a lot of fighting that could have been cut for the sake of character development, but I think this about most movies. The EE may help, because I think that the jarring editing mentioned above may be due to a lot of cutting to get the movie down to an acceptable running time. But the ending captured the poignancy of the book without including the Scouring, which impressed me quite a bit. So the first half gets a B-, and the second half an A+ These movies will be considered landmarks of cinema for some time, and will hopefully encourage more studios to release fantasy movies that are well plotted and acted instead of just special affects showpieces.
I saw it a week ago at a preview and didn’t do too much spoiling around here (I hope).
It was a fun 3 1/2 hours and I really enjoyed it. Don’t know that its Oscar worthy (but I haven’t seen most of its competition).
I thought the Dead rocked!
As did Eowyn (just as I pictured it) and Merry. And Sam. Gollum got old (I agree that having seen the schizo bit once, I didn’t need it again - I understood that Gollum was going to betray them and steal the ring).
There were a few times that you could tell Pippin was the body double. That didn’t work for me. Most of the other special effects were not noticable to me.
The fights and battles were much better than in TT - mostly because you got to see them this time - they happened in the daytime. This was really the best movie of the three from a stunts/combat point of view.
This one seemed to be the weakest edited. Seemed choppy. Some of the continuity was off (dirtier faces in one shot than the next).
I loved the additional Arwen in Fellowship. The Arwen-Glorfindel was great. Then she turned into the thousand year old petulant teenager. It wasn’t a consistant characterization and the character didn’t work for me in the last two films where she was so passive. She never worked for me in the books where she shows up at the end and its like “who?” (I re-read the appendix last night, and even that isn’t satisfying. Arwen just seems so - well, nothing but beautiful - especially when your alternate choice is Eowyn.)
Didn’t have a problem with Denethor’s nuttiness not being explained. I didn’t remember he had a palantir until one of these threads, I just remembered he went bonkers. Going bonkers when your favorite son is dead and your country is about to be wiped from the face of the earth didn’t seem to need any more rationalization.
Gondor bowing to the Hobbits was both moving and cheesy. Reminded me of Mulan (as did the beacons). Whenever I am reminded too strongly of one movie in another, it doesn’t work for me as escapism (though I think homage is a great technique for art - just not for entertainment). And yes, the walkers from Jedi were in my head too.
I did miss the Eowyn Faromir romance, because those were always my favorite characters. But I don’t think they should have put it in - too much time.
I agree that the timing was awkward. The Frodo story happens at such a slow pace compared to the other plots. And the distances once they got into Mordor seemed so compressed - yet far too long for the events happening in the other storyline with the rest of the Company at the Black Gates. I don’t think it could have been done much better, but it was awkward.
Sorry for having two threads going on this topic. I really did look to see if there already was a thread before I started this! Honest!
:smack:
I’m not aware of the “ringbearer” that you mentioned. I guess that would mean no. The thoughts I posted were just my own.
I think this is covered in the other movie thread. This is actually directly from a paragraph in the book. It was a signal. As far as the green effects. Minas Morgul is a creepy place. I thought it looked great.
This is a country that has been at war for years. All of the cover approaching Minas Tirith would have long since been cleared. The open fields seem right to me.
Someone mentioned changing the ending to have Sam singing The Road Goes Ever On at the end. The ending with Sam was as it should have been, but it would have been a very good touch to have heard this song somewhere at the end. Maybe Bilbo could have started singing softly in the carriage?
Another place that I think they missed out was with Gandalf riding out to save Faramir from the wraiths. The scene itself was great, but they missed out on the tension of the people watching helplessly from the walls, wondering if anyone would or could save them. Thus Gandalf rides out when all hope is seemingly lost.
Still, I’m going to have to see this movie again this weekend. I was left feeling very satisfied.
Both of these are quite explicit in the book.
As for the questions raised about the Pippin versus the Palantir: Was the scene with Merry and Pippin unclear for someone who hasn’t read the books? I’m thinking of when Pippin gets on the horse with Gandalf, Pippin says he’s confused as to what’s going on, and Merry says, “Pip, Sauron thinks you have the Ring.” There was also a lot of discussion with Gandalf, Aragorn, Theoden, Merry and Pippin regarding what Pippin might have revealed.
I really hope that the success of these movies encourages the American film establishment to take more chances. New Line took an awful risk by making these movies. While the movies did have a built-in audience, there was considerable question as to whether or not they would connect with the larger public, and they certainly weren’t formulaic or easily understood. The studio could have gone under if the trilogy had failed financially. That the movies have been such huge successes both artistically and financially will hopefully resonate with someone in the Hollywood community. A B-movie director from New Zealand has just beat Hollywood at its own game. This summer’s crop of spectacle movies didn’t do so well–especially not compared to Return of the King. Dare we hope that someone with some money in the Hollywood hills will get a clue?
“It never was much of a hope.”
Boromir dies in the first book/movie. He was a member of the Fellowship. Gandalf (or what he was) also “dies” although he is resurected in a new form. The book make the “new Gandalf” a lot more disconnected from the “old Gandalf” than the movies do.