i stand corrected on the blue wizards, i didn’t remember their names (it’s been a long time since i’ve read UT or any of the lost books).
I could swear i remember reading something about them becoming corrupted though, ending up as kings of some eastern nations of men. I wish i could remember where though. Maybe this means i have to haul out all my old books and start re-reading…
Since I happen to have a copy of the “Unfinished Tales” right beside me, allow me to quote a short passage from it… this is near the start of the chapter “The Istari”
This appears to contradict the passage in Appendix B of “The Lord of the Rings” which states:
So, it seems that even J.R.R. himself wasn’t sure how many there were. Clearly however, the two who appear to have had the largest role to play in the fight against Sauron are our guys, Gandalf and Saruman.
Depends on your definition of “free”. I’m pretty sure they vaporized; lost the ability to hold their physical form together; became one with the Universe. You know, the same fate as befell the WitchKing (wait…you haven’t gotten there yet).
“Freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose;
Nothin’ ain’t worth nothin’, but it’s free;
Waftin’ off was easy, Lord, when Frodo dropped the Ring,
Waftin’ off just like another breeze
For me and the Witch King-ee!”
– the Nazgul Chorus, from ROTK: EE2, the Cutting Room Scraps
I haven’t read the books, but all these different names in different tongues got me thinking. In ROTK (the movie), when the beacons are lit, Aragorn says, “Gondor calls for aid!” Theoden replies, “And Rohan will answer!”
Since Theoden lives in The Mark, shouldn’t he have said, “And The Mark will answer!”? Or was this just a PJ error?
Also, Gimli himself refers to Khazad-dum as Moria.
So, I’m wondering, was this interchanging of names only done in the movies?
I rationalize stuff like this by saying that maybe these characters who know several languages will automatically use the more well known term for a place when talking to others who may not speak their native language. So Theoden used “Rohan” for what he would normally think of as “The Mark” (even though Aragorn speaks Rohirric). As for Gimli, the Dwarves are apparently quite used to NOT speaking Khudzul around others, so he used the Elvish term in a group of humans, Hobbits and an Elf.
The last post also provides the other half of the answer about the Moria-gate question: The password was written in Elvish because they were matey with the elves; it was deliberately not written in Dwarvish (Khuzdul, as stated), because the dwarves were chary about speaking or writing their language in the presence of others.
The battle-cry “Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-menu!” (“Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!”) was no secret, of course. Otherwise, we see next to nothing of the language in the book unless we trouble to transcribe the runes on Balin’s tomb: “Balin Fundinul Uzbud Khazaddumu” (“Balin Fundin’s son Lord of Moria!”).
The Mark is an abbreviation of Riddermark, another name for Rohan (and in the movie, it’s how Eomer refers to the place in his first line). The Encyclopedia of Arda doesn’t give an etymology, but I always assumed (or read somewhere else) that it had something to do with -march, meaning “frontier”.
“The legend lives on from the Dunedain on down
of the big isle they call Atalantë.
The isle it went down when Sauron ruled the crown
And the edain sailed west of Avalonnë!”
And when Aragorn announces himself to Eomer and his men as they thunder by, he uses BOTH terminologies. (“Riders of Rohan! What news of the Mark?”)
I’ve been slogging through Tom Shippey’s The Road to Middle Earth, which does a lot of analysis of how the languages, themes and styles of the works Tolkien based his academic career on influenced Middle-Earth. It posits that the source might be Mercia, the Anglo-Saxon kingdom in central England that included Oxford. The derivation of Mercia is from Mearc, which would most likely be pronounced “mark”. (Rohan is obviously based on an Anglo-Saxon model.)
< can of worms >
Apparently there’s some huge debate amongst Tolkien geeks about whether balrogs have wings or not. Having just now reread the scene, looking for clues, um…I don’t get why there’s a debate. It says in the text (close paraphrase) “The balrog drew itself up to a great height, stretched its wings and they spread from wall to wall.”
It has wings. It says so. Right there.
Y’can’t get much clearer than that.
I’ve read a little about the other side of the debate: there’s an earlier line that uses the word “wings” in a metaphor…something like “The balrog’s shadow fell like two great wings around it” but the fact that Tolkien used the word “wings” twice in two different contexts in two different paragraphs doesn’t prove or disprove anything. They’re two unrelated sentences. It’s like saying “The sun flowed through the trees, falling around Galadrial like hair on a pillow” and then several paragraphs later saying "Galadrial’s golden hair shone in the sun. ". Two individual statments. The first doesn’t mean that Galadrial is bald.
Anyone want to comment or try to explain the “Balrogs are wingless” side better? Because if it’s just the earlier metaphor, I say “piffle”.
I am considering one-upping my geekness and learning one of the elven languages. Is there a decent website that teaches them? I found http://www.ardalambion.com which had a lot of useful information, but when I tried to download the tutorials my anti-virus software popped up and asked if I wanted to scan the c: drive. Not really willing to take that risk.
I can only say, I agree completely. I took a couple of classes that dealt with Tolkien while I was in college, and I could never figure out what the big deal was. The words are there, they say what they say, what is the argument?
Well, there’s also the matter that at least twice, balrogs have fallen to their deaths (the one Gandalf fought, and the one that Glorfindel fought). And there are implications in the Lost Tales that none of Melko’s original servants had the power of flight (he imprisoned and tortured the Lord of the Eagles to try to get him to divulge the secret). So if balrogs can’t fly, then what are the wings for?
I don’t know if this question is answered, but in other threads here, it has been mentioned that Tolkien viewed magic differently from the people who wrote D&D.
All I could say - Tolkien’s Gandalf has more mystery and character than a level 20 mage from D&D. And I glad Gandalf was protrayed as such in the movies.
The more definite answer - In Tolkien’s world view, “power” is more or less hidden within a person, and is not shown through shiny physical arts like fireball and etc. And Tolkien gives to his wizards and powerful men abilities more powerful than stinking cloud and fireballs.
Gandalf - Ability to encourage, inspire people’s will, counsel, foresight and one very fast horse. His otherwise more visible abilities include flaming swords, fireworks, lightning a campfire in middle of a blizzard, breaking a stone bridge into half with a stroke of his staff, creates light.
Saurman - Loremaster, technology, and his VOICE, with which he could influence and manipulate people. That, my friend, is more powerful than Charm Person or Dominate. The snowstorm from the movie doesn’t count - Tolkien attributes that either to Sauron, or to the innate cruelness of the mountain itself.
Aragorn - Kingship (and hence the ability to wield Anduril and use the Palantir, and using Athleas to heal the Black Breath). That alone is enough power.
What are the wings on an ostrich for? Maybe they were designed with the wings, so that when Melko got the secret to flight the balrogs were already set up to use it. And the balrog Gandalf fought did not die in a fall. Both it and Gandalf survived that fall, then fought their way up the Endless Stair to the top of the mountain where Gandalf killed it, then promptly fell over dead himself. And who says all balrogs have wings? They started out the same as Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron, but there is certainly a difference in how each of them looks on Middle Earth.