The Walking Dead; 5.08 "Coda" (open spoilers)

The swap made no sense. Rick’s group is too savvy and paranoid to ever agree to a meeting on the 5th(?) floor of an enemies stronghold. If only because Carol was injured and would have had to be carried, wheeled, or somehow assisted, plus the staircase(s) were the only way to exit the building. It would be the perfect place for a trap.

Beth’s final action made no sense either. There was no upside. Both sides expected betrayal from the other, and both sides were armed and experienced marksmen. I would think that a reenactment of The Wild Bunch would be the normal reaction after such an odd interaction. And as an experienced fighter, how did she miss from such a close range?

Morgan appears to be following “somebodies” trail markings etched into trees. Rick, Carl, and Michonne were the last members of the prison who had visited Morgan’s stronghold. I assume Rick is marking the trail.

Yes, Judith’s been used too frequently as a crutch to inject tension into the story. But, deliberately offing the kid would be bad for practical reasons beyond the obvious “murdering your own people is not good behavior” stuff.

The “sunk costs” mindset is a powerful one, even though it probably is the wrong way to analyze the question of keeping someone in the group. The “cost” to get Judith has been extra food, extra labor, and extra risks, not to mention the death of one adult (Lori). The aversion to writing off all of those lost resources and missed opportunities by abandoning or outright killing her is likely to be strong among the group, especially the original people.

A murderer would also have to deal with Rick and Carl. The former has been made out to be scarily dangerous lately and the latter could probably take on half the people in the group in the one-on-one yelling/shoving/mortal combat progression that fights tend to have on this show.

She will be useful in the near term, provided they settle down in one spot again. The kid’s around a year old, in another year she’ll be able to give meaningful help with domestic work. Little tiny kids (by our modern standards) did agricultural chores and worked in factories not so long ago. Another pair of hands to “put this stuff over there” or “hold these things for a minute” is valuable, if only because it frees up an adult to do higher-return work like building a fence instead of shelling beans. By the time she’s four, she ought to be producing more than she consumes.

These people obviously want to live, otherwise they’d have taken one of the many opportunities to end it all. They have an abundance of resources and a shortage of manpower. Rejecting kids today creates a future risk of having a group composed mostly of people too old or too young to be truly effective. The individual dangers of pregnancy may make it foolhardy to deliberately have kids at this stage, but it would be equally foolhardy to throw away existing human assets like accidental kids or foundlings.

Those are good points, so maybe what needs to happen is someone needs to create a LPITA-muzzle, or some other form of sound-moderation system…

Forget suppressed weapons, they need a suppressed LPITA…

Judith represents the future. If there are no children, or children can’t survive, in the world of the walking dead, then there is no future and no hope.

This is all true, but I’d like to add that there’s not a member of the group, with the possible exception of Father Gabriel, whose capable of killing that baby or even articulating the thought that they’d be better off if they went all Oedipus on her. Anyone who attempted such a thing would face not merely Rick & Carl’s wrath, but that of Michonne, Daryl, Caryl, Michonne, Sasha, Tyreese, Michonne, Glenn, Maggie, Michonne, Rosita, Tara, Abraham, and Michonne.

There’s that. There’s also that the people in the group are human beings, not robotic sociopaths.

You left out Michonne.

True, in that she should have been included with Rick & Carl. :smiley:

They are one big mud and blood spattered family.

I was mostly addressing the post-apocalyptic HR manager spreadsheet perspective that infects these discussions from time to time.

Like I said, HR manger types.

One might idly wonder if the “they’d be better off without the kid” contingent has recently gotten off a plane full of infants.

But what about Michonne? How would she respond?

Beth was already dead to me. Having her gone is a great big… nothing. I want to see that fucking priest have his face chewed off, while he’s still alive, by Walkers.

Well, not quite. Rick, Carl, Judith, and Michonne, Daryl, Carol, Glenn, Maggie, Tyreese, and Sasha are a family (with four sub-groups). I don’t think Abraham, Rosita, and Tara are quite in that group yet; they’re more allies. Remember, in story it’s only been a few days since Terminus happened.

A couple points:

  1. When the preacher was on the porch only two walkers had made it through the barricade and he was fending them off with the pipe, so how did all the walkers manage to get through right when the door was opened? That annoyed me. Also, why did they have to open both doors wide? Couldn’t you just open one side?

  2. Why did Beth try to kill Dawn? And why didn’t she stab her in the neck if she really wanted to kill her - did she learn nothing about anatomy while she was helping the doctor? I guess this bothers me the most, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. Even with all the heart to hearts they had I don’t think I got the gist of what was going on in Beth’s head before the bullet went through it. I think Beth realized that Dawn was “the bad guy” and she would never change and the whole world situation would never change, I think she gave up and figured she could at least help those people out by getting rid of the dictator. It’s just too bad she didn’t figure it out earlier and push both her and the other cop down the elevator shaft during that fight.

  3. Why was there no fire fight after Beth and Dawn were shot? I think Our Gang were too in shock and the other guys wanted Dawn dead and were fine with what happened. I guess everyone showed amazing restraint. I think we are left to believe that things will be better in the hospital since all the “bad cops” are gone. This doesn’t bother me as much as why did Beth do what she did.

  4. Maggie acting like she never had a sister. We don’t now what has gone on in Maggie’s head. She had seen her own father horrifically murdered in front of her. After the prison I think she just internalized everything. I think she assumed her sister was dead, even after meeting back up with Darryl she still had to assume Beth was dead. She went looking for Glenn after the prison because she at least had a clue where to look for him, she had no idea what happened to Beth or where to look. That makes it all the more tragic, she had no hope that Beth was alive then she was given hope and then had it taken away again.

All you need is a big enough tribe that someone can stay behind with the children and weak while the rest go out hunting, gathering and fighting. Humans have been doing it that way forever, and Rick’s group is still a human tribe. It’s never been common for humans to ditch the weak and helpless at the first sign of inconvenience.

I can understand from a story telling standpoint to have the group on the move all the time but, if we can say “realistically” in a fantasy situation, realistically they should be looking to settle down and grow food. They can’t scavenge forever. At least the hospital had been growing crops on the roof. Now that they know there is no hope in D.C. I think next season will have to have them looking for a place to settle.

Thanks - I’ll have to re-watch with that music in my head now. :slight_smile:

Heh. :smiley:

I wouldn’t miss either of them. Hopefully Gabriel will get his shit together now and start not being dead weight.

Interesting question - maybe the virus that re-animates dead people makes living ones infertile. I’m still trying to figure out how Lori got pregnant - maybe the virus wasn’t as common right at the start of the ZA and they snuck one by.

One thing that has surprised me in this thread is that no one seems to be talking about what seems to me the theme of the season–hell, the entire show: the group’s moral degeneration. I think Beth was chosen to die to highlight how the group has fallen.

Consider a few things. First, a deliberate parallel was drawn between Rick and Gareth (and by extension, Team Grimes and the Termites) in the very first season. It’s not an accident that they named that cop Bob. Rick’s posture and verbage as he was preparing to murder a helpless, crippled opponent were a disturbing echo of Gareth’s barbecue monologue. Rick’s version was less stupid and less rationalizing than Gareth’s, of course, but nonetheless it made very clear that a formerly-good man had become quite brutal, if not yet entirely corrupt.

Now Beth. I loved the character and Emily Kinney’s portrayal of her, but she hasn’t been the little bitty pretty one, the innocent singer and babysitter, in quite some time. Her size and cuteness hide how cold and detached and brutal she too had grown. She didn’t lose her temper at Dawn; she was planning to at least wound and if possible murder her for some time, sheerly out of a desire for revenge. Recall that the scissors she used were the same ones she had hidden on her person in the episode focusing on her–the scissors she was prevented from using by Carol’s arrival. Said scissors were too small to be effective anti-zombie weapons, but might suffice to kill a human, and she hid them in her cast when she knew that at the very least the two most badass men in Georgia were coming to get her. It was pretty clear to me that her embrace of Noah was a feint. She needed an excuse to get within arm’s reach of Dawn–who, though certainly duplicitous and venal, had revealed herself as not entirely evil in this episode. But she had harmed Beth, and Beth wanted revenge, even when reason should have told her that she was endangering her own friends in seeking it.

Which brings me to Gareth. I think I commented on the stupidity of the Termites’ plan in their last appearance–how their desire for revenge had so unbalanced them that they were willingly and needlessly starting a fight with a clearly-superior force. The whole encounter was an unmitigated disaster for them, just as Beth’s assault on Dawn was an unmitigated disaster for her.

Team Grimes was/is on the way to becoming the Termites. Beth was furthest along that road, and it cost her her life; but Rick is on the same highway and hitting all the same motels. Now, they won’t become cannibals like the the Termites, because they have civilizing influences–primarily Tyreese and Judith, and the several bonds in the sub-groups. But as Human Action pointed out two or three seasons back, they’ve become dangerously tribal and ruthless.

ETA: Nothing in the above should be interpreted to mean that Father Gabriel should not have his hands and feet chopped off.

Having Beth stab Dawn compromised the character, making her less sympathetic due to both the stupidity and the brutality of the action. (As an indicator of this, I notice that the ‘stabbing shot’ has been cut out of some of the video clips being shown. For example, in a discussion of the episode on the CNN Headline News channel, we see the entire scene except the shot of Beth stabbing Dawn.)

But the decision to have Beth stab Dawn may be a measure of the showrunners’ commitment to valorizing badassery in general. If a character fails to be aggressive against others–even when it’s stupid to be aggressive against others!–then this show can’t quite put that character in a positive light. At the very least, such a choice is a subject for skepticism. (The slow build to the fate of Tyreese–and the judgmental view of his recent choices that’s implicit in his plot arc–is another manifestation of this Walking Dead worldview.)
Also, general comment (due to having seen this posted by a couple of people):

“Daryl balling” =/= “Daryl bawling” :dubious:

Except that they’re not doing so with their most, ah, memetic badasses, Daryl & Michonne. They’ve both become much more emotionally open and inclined to mercy as the series has progressed. For that matter, Carol’s recent increase in badassery has not made her any more emotionally healthy.

As I wrote in the post above yours, I don’t believe we’re meant to see Beth’s attempted murder as a good thing. It was to show how far she’s fallen, and how far Rick is in danger of falling.

Unfortunately, they won’t show the former. Too bad it isn’t on HBO.