I was very interested to read Sauron’s OP because my husband and I are a childless couple in our late thirties, and I don’t know very much about how child support works.
Domino is a self-proclaimed expert on child care and child support and immediately jumped on a couple of posters whose lives he/she knows nothing about.
Sauron, I would be interested to hear how it all turns out.
Well, thanks, Spooky. I’ll keep you posted as we go through this via this thread, if you want.
I expect things will eventually get settled, although probably not as quickly as I would like. My ex undoubtedly sees this as just beginning six weeks ago. I see it as something that should have happened a year ago, but since I didn’t pursue it that’s on me. I still think six weeks is enough time to do the research, do the math, and realize I’m offering a better deal than is required. But since it will mean she gets $230 less a month in child support, she’s unwilling to go forward.
I’m picking the kids up tonight for my weekend of visitation. I don’t like discussing this in front of them. Maybe I can get them in the car and then bring it up with my ex. We’ll see what happens.
Bella,
You know you’re my hero, but I’ve got to disagree slightly. It does cost more to add other people to this equation with utilities and I do think that should be taken into account.
Electricity: More people using lights (and leaving lights on) 
, using room fans in the summer, maybe the child will be watching t.v. while the adult uses the computer etc…
Water: More people showering does cost more money, etc…
On an unrelated ramble I was told that food shouldn’t be tallied into the equation (different board, different people) My opinion is that with kids there are more people eating, and yes children do eat. Granted they don’t eat that much but it can add up. My guinea pigs alone add 40 to my bi-weekly food bill, but then my guinea pigs are literally black holes that do not stop squeaking in their never ending quest for food (so I can understand if I shouldn’t use them as an example)
And other necessities… On that other board I was told all necessities should be just added in to what the mother was already buying and shouldn’t be counted. Sure…children like using mom’s toothbrush. shrugs It’s little things like that which can add up, little things which we don’t think about.
I’m not actually disagreeing with YOU on this or anyone here, those points (which can easily be pulled to shreads because I’m not a child care know-it-all) are just to hint at the fact that there are hard to tally costs when you have children.
The father MAY NOT KNOW how much she needs, sometimes it seems he just assumes the mother is wasting his hard earned money and sometimes she may be, but that is not ALWAYS the case and I don’t like it assummed that it is necessarily happening.
Sauron,
My ramble was in no way directed at you. 
I wish you luck, and hope it gets straightened out.
No problem, Vivien. I don’t have a problem with paying child support at all. I wish I was in a financial situation where I could just say “heck with it” and not worry about trying to get it reduced.
Sauron, have you documented the things that have made their way back to you, that she’s said to, or in front of your kids? Any time there is conflict between separated, or divorced parents, it is very wise to document, document, document. I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I’ve been told that, by numerous people. If you have, then it is something that you can, if you do end up back in court, bring to the attention of the court, along with a copy of the divorce agreement that strictly prohibits it. Might work to your benefit, as far as the support, if she tries to fight you on it.
Just a thought.
~V
Hell, if you keep on saying such nice things, I’ll pretty much agree with whatever you say!
Really though, I’ll take your word on this one. My son’s little enough that the multiple electronics haven’t really come into play yet, so I’m probably not the best example. Just out of curiosity though, about how much extra–meaning how much more for straight usage, and not service or wire fees–do you think you spend on electricity than you would without the kid(s)?
Well, Sauron–without hijacking your thread any more, I just wanted to toss in my hope that things work out for you without having to resort to arm-twisting or hostilities. That’s never fun for a parent, and even less so for the kids. Good luck.
bella
Sauron, good luck. I, too, deal with a foot-dragging ex who won’t meet me 25% of the way (even the times I’ve had to 'lawyer-up) regarding documenting income and expenses.
I pay just shy of $800.00 a month, all insurance, most medical, and still end up purchasing a load of clothes, supplies, toiletries. And I don’t mind ;). While I make sure my son always has a gift to give his mother on Mother’s Day, her birthday and Christmas, I feel bad when he asks for gifts to give to his maternal grandparents and aunt and I have to draw a line and say ‘No’.
I also have a step-daughter. Her mother doesn’t receive a dime in support. Her ex has an outstanding warrant, and if we find out he reenters the country she will happily send him to jail. She’s been ostracized (sp?) by all of her ex’s family except his sister. They’re mad that we won’t let him return. To them, Ms. D_Odds is just being greedy and vindicative (happily ignoring her bankruptcy determination that he helped cause, pre D_Odds days).
[Once again I’ve erased a rant about my son’s mother. I keep telling myself this is not the place to air it, and thus far I’ve been good. I figure there’s enough two-way ranting to be done that my viewpoint alone would be an unfair portrayal. No halo on my head either).
In Domino’s defense, that’s exactly what happened to me when I applied for child support. I had to show six months worth of electric bills, water bills, clothing costs, entertainment, grocery bills, dry cleaning, doctor bills not covered by insurance, day care receipts, car payments, car insurance, my apartment rental agreement, showing costs of 1 BR vs. a 2 BR apartment, pay stubs showing what I paid for “Parent & Child” health insurance, I even had to get a notarized letter from my employer stating the cost for “Single” health insurance (which my employer paid for) so they (the court) could see the difference that I was paying. They wanted to know what I paid for EVERY SINGLE THING, whether it was related to my child directly or not. It all figured into how much child support I ended up getting, along with how much we both made, of course.
Not to get into a snotty tangent, but my life (financial-wise) was pretty much laid bare for all to see at our hearing, and questioned like you wouldn’t believe, (“Why did you choose this apartment complex over that one, when that one is $50 less a month? Why did you spend $15 more this month for groceries? Why did you spend $6 on dry-cleaning three months ago? What exactly did you have dry-cleaned? Why do you subscribe to the newspaper? Can’t you just watch the news on TV?”) but all my ex had to produce was a couple of pay stubs. It was humiliating.
That sucks Kinsey, it seems like there should be some more dignified way to go about the whole mess, doesn’t it?
I was actually just reading a thread in GD that touched on child support, and I was enlightened a bit about how they actually determine it. So, like I said in my last post, I’ll concede that I was off-base on the utilities statement. Although I have a question for anyone who shares custody—Is the primary custodian’s “extra” rent included in support payments even though the other parent is also required to provide a home big enough to have the kids at visitations?
Actually, my mess was 13 years ago, and I think Maryland has straightened out their CS payment stuff since then.
And yes, the whole utilities thing was weird. I can remember thinking then, “My electric bill is figured into his child support payment?!?” Yup, if your electric bill is $100 a month, the ex is responsible for the $12 worth of electricity that the child uses. (just being facetious, of course, but that’s kinda what they did)
The whole experience was just bizzare.
I feel lucky. We didn’t have to go through any of this scrutinizing of our bills. AFAIK, our child support will be based purely on how much the ex makes (actually on minimum wage because she’s too lazy to work) plus the cost of the kids’ medical insurance. As soon as Jim Dear’s divorce is finally final and his ex marries the asshat she abandoned her family for (meaning that the Army will take our payments out of his paycheck), we may be able to stop borrowing money to pay our bills! Yay!
You are lucky this is not the pit or else this post would get VERY ugly.
Let me explain a few things to you Judge Domino. Maybe you will approve of my paultry $400 a month if you better understand the situation.
The ex and I were both in the USAF. We lived in base housing, which is fully paid for. Utilities and rent are non existant. We also got 260 a month for food. Well, I got out of the AF in 99 and she stayed in. No problem there. We continued to live in base housing, free, because she was still active duty.
Early this year we decided to get a divorce. We were not in love anymore. We both love our daughter and are still friends. I moved out of the house, which she still lives in for free, adn got an apt. I took on an additional $1K a month living expenses that I did not have before. I didn’t get any raise. I don’t have a savings that I dip from. I went from rentless, to $1K a month to live. She and my baby both still live in a free house. I took every bill we had because my ex had previously declared bankruptcy before I met her. She couldnt get anything in her name while we were married. The car, $10K in credit card debit. All mine now. She got the car that was paid off. I didn’t complain.
We filled out the child support form for colorado and my monthly amount came to $400 bucks a month. We calculated this using my income and her BASE salary. This means her free housing and food were not considered in the CS calculation even though they normally are. I figured that $400 a month was a fair amount. If we had done it WITH her housing bennies, it would have come out lower because our income ratios would have been closer. Her daycare costs per month are $260 which the ex pays because I am fronting the entire load of the bills. She does not mind.
I am not rich. You may be. To me $400 a month is alot of money. That means that, as far as the courts are concerned, it costs $800 bucks a month to raise my daughter. It does not. I know for a fact is doesn’t because I raised her for 2.5 years and continue to provide for her. I buy her clothes, toys, movies, candy, socks, underwear, shoes etc… I could NOT do that because that is what my CS is for, but I like her to have nice things. It doesn’t bother me in the least. My ex doesnt ask me to buy her these things. I do it because I am her father and its my job. I said I didn’t mind, meaning that it does not bother me and I do not complain like alot of guys do.
So here I am, taking on all of our marital debt without complaint, and paying $400 bucks a month (25% of my after tax income if you must know), moved from a 3 bedroom, 2 bath house into a 2 bedroom apt, bought my baby an entire new bedroom set for my little apt, and you have the balls to say “$400 bucks aint shit?”
Fuck you buddy. Fuck you.
Damn, this IS the Pit. I didn’t even notice. I thought it was MPSIMS for some reason.
I wanted to add something. The only reason that she is paying daycare on her own is so that she doesn’t have to pay me $400 a month back to help me with the credit cards. She has NO debt. No ccards, no car payment, no rent. The ONLY monthly bill she has is ar insurance and daycare, which as you can tell, is much reduced because she is considered a “single parent” now.
I have no intention of taking 8 years to pay off a 4 year marraige. I am putting $500 a month on these cards, and $400 a month to her for CS.
Domino, I don’t know if you MEANT to sound like a judgemental bitch, but you did. For some reason everytime I reread your post and get to the line about how “$400 dollars aint shit” I get madder and madder. I don’t care WHAT your situation is, but you have no right to judge ANYONE on shit like this. I eat fucking hot dogs and cereal every fucking day. I just bought a new sweatshirt today. I buy one piece of clothing a month cause thats all I can afford to spend on myself. You are RECIEVING CS. If you ever have to pay to someone you may be a little more understanding.
If I made $1K a month $400 a month would still be “shit” wouldn’t it?
Once again, fuck you. You’re an asshole.
I have no experience with child support, divorce, or that mess. The reason, I’m too young. I just wanted to say that this thread makes me think that that world will always need more [or better] lawyers.
I think I’ll go become one.
Unless my math is bad, half of $900 is $450.
Stinkpalm says he’s paying $400.
Where’s the problem, Domino?
Seems to me that it’s quite possible $400 might be a reasonable level of support if Stinkpalm lives in a slightly cheaper place than you. Maybe you should save your righteous indignation for guys who don’t pay support.
Did you really find it necessary to flip out over $50? He sounds like a good father to me. You owe him an apology, unless you’re saying his latest posts are lies.
Just this. Your previous post had said:
So your original figures were for $900/mo without full-time daycare; $11-1200 with.
Now your $900 without includes $400/month for daycare. I’m confused.
I realize that this might include some part-time, ‘latchkey’ daycare, so the child’s supervised between the end of the school day and the end of the working day. But if that’s $400/mo, then it’s hard to imagine that fulltime would only be an extra $2-300/month. (That difference is from your numbers.) I admit unfamiliarity with how daycare costs work, but I’m having a hard time getting my mind around the numbers working like that. Any help?
Stinkpalm, I think what made Domino mad (and me to a certain extent) was the phrase, “but I don’t mind”.
I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but it comes across as rather flippant. I’ll admit, this is a rather touchy subject for me, so maybe I’m just overly-sensitive, but saying, “but I don’t mind” seems like you’re begrudging her the money. It sounds a lot like something my ex would have said. He wanted everyone to know he was paying CS (he always said he was “giving” me money in a demeaning way, and acted like it was thousands of dollars a month), but made me grovel and beg to get it.
My ex used to play that stupid little game where he’d come over to drop off the check and hold it out to me and when I reached to take it would either drop it on the floor, or pull it back repeatedly. He was an ass.
He thought that just because he wrote me a check for $60 a week, he was frigging Father of the Year. That didn’t even cover day care costs. I never got any reduced day care for being a single parent. That would have been really nice.
I’m not comparing you to him, just trying to explain how sometimes a certian phrase can be miscontrused.
I’m not trying to stir anything up, just explaining another point of view.
If she came across as arrogant it’s because she is very passionate about ensuring that the children are taken care of. She has heard so many stories about why the non-custodial parent (henceforth NCP) can’t pay xxx dollars in support while s/he sits across from her in high dollar clothing with various toys (top of the line cell phone, pager, PDA etc) attached to his/her hip. Then, of course, there is the NCP that jumps from job to job to avoid getting child support taken out of his/her check or even the one that refuses to work. We all know that these assholes are out there.
I don’t see that she is claiming to be an expert. She said this:
to let people know that she knows that she has the knowledge to back her statements. Also notice that she specifically works on cases in which the NCP hasn’t paid in over a year. That’s GOING to affect her outlook on people that make what appear to us to be innocuous statements, IE:
To be honest, my first response to that statement was, “I should hope you DON’T mind, Stinkpalm!” I also had the same reaction to symplicity’s initial post. Not knowing the situation, it sounded like she didn’t care that her child was not seeeing her father. I know that you both explained your stance later in the day and are both very justified in your stances, I am just saying that to let you know that Domino wasn’t the only one that read more into the words that were there initially. Remember that not all of us know everyone’s background and all we can do is react to what is there for everyone to read.
I equate her reaction to those of us that work in the medical field and have seen horrible things happen to people on a daily basis. Many is the time that I have been of being callous when I see a horrible trauma and don’t react the same way my friends do. We tend to be a bit more calloused about things when we deal with bad things on a daily basis. I believe this applies to everyone, no matter what you do.
So let’s give Domino a chance. Some have said that she jumped in without knowing the full story. Seems we are doing the same to Domino? She really is a wonderful mom AND person and in time, you will all see that too.
I am sure she will be checking in sometime soon and will defend her stance, so I will stop now.
Just my $0.02,
'catz
Listen you moronic, doublefucked buttburger, you need some remedial instruction in logical thought.
Oh, so you moved to a different apartment when your daughter moved out. That’s nice. So she sleeps on the couch when she’s with you? Some of us own houses, and we like the idea of our children having an actual bedroom when they’re with us.
Some of us spend quite a bit of time (55/45) with our kids, and have quite nearly the same food costs as before the split up…or don’t you see her much or feed her when you do?
Oh yeah, kids just burn through the utilities once they move out. Feh. My utilities are, for all practical purposes, the same as when my son left. As for covering utilities when he’s somewhere else…he’s in a house with four other people (two adults and two kids). His portion is more than covered by what I pay.
I buy new clothes for him that never seem to make it back after I drop him off. When I come to pick him up, he’s in hand-me-downs or other used clothing. Winter coats, sports equipment/uniforms, new tennis shoes…I buy them. Fuck you and your clothing costs. Her other two kids seem to have new clothes, though.
Activities? Activities! I always did and still do provide the lion’s share of activities/entertainment for my son. His mother provides nearly none. By your logic, she should be reimbursing me.
Saving for braces/college? Fat chance, bucko. I live from check to check, but my ex- and her husband buy new cars regularly and a new house. Also, I’ve already told my son that he’ll probably need to go into a branch of the military if he plans on college because I won’t be in a position to help him too much.
Oh, and braces? That’s a luxury I wish I could afford for him, but it’s out of the question.
Oh, you’re so generous in thinking that it should be 50/50. Of fucking course it should be. But when the laws of the state where you work allow the mother to sit on her dead ass and claim only $2,000 per year income (when her husband makes more than me, but it doesn’t have to be included), and the courts view fathers as nothing but a billfold, then your “$400 a month ain’t shit” statement falls as flat as your worthless, parasitic ass.
Y’know, maybe the State of Minnesota could save some money by not sending me a statement each month that says I owe child support, but that I can disregard the notice because it’s being automatically withheld. Everyone that has CS automatically deducted (at least in Hennepin County) gets the same letter. Knock it the fuck off and quit wasting my taxes!
You CS enforcement schmucks are probably the largest useless drain of money that I can immediately think of. You waste money on people that are already paying, and you couldn’t find a deadbeat if he/she crawled up your butt and whistled.
Your attitude is typical of those that I’ve encountered at the CS office. You’re a bunch of do-nothing, dumbass, dipshit dolts who haven’t had an original thought since the last time you snorted a dog fart.
Chew my sweaty BVD’s, motherfucker.