To my (possibly soon-to-be-ex-) husband

The BBQ Pit
41

Just as a further addendum to my earlier posts - I’d like to note that I’m not some idealist who lives in Willy Wonka land. Far from it.

There are some other self esteem rules which we need to also follow when we’re in the presence of people who refuse to extend courtesy and respect towards us.

Firstly, it’s impossible to reason with someone if they’re being aggressive. Secondly, it’s impossible to respect someone if you can’t reason with them. It’s incredibly important to know when to walk away if we’re in the presence of someone who is acting aggressively. In an assertive manner, we should announce that the meeting or phone call is going no further and it will take place again when the other person can remember to conduct themselves under the two golden rules in my earlier posts.

To this end, I strongly recommend that people learn the art of how to “agree to agree” - that is, settling on a methodology which both parties accept as being an informal mission statement for want of a better description. I also strongly recommend that separated couples avoid doing any negotiation or business over the phone. Big trap. Big, BIG TRAP to avoid. Always organise 15 minute meetings in a neutral coffe shop in front of lots of people and lots of safety which ensures cordial conduct. Think of it as a business relationship. It’s quite OK to write a list of ideas and forward them prior to the meeting as a means of advance warning - that’s quite a common business courtesy. But keep the meetings short and civil and don’t wander. Merely focus on the agenda that day and leave on good terms. Write your new agreement down and date it and get both parties to sign the new agreement and it stays in force until a later version comes into play. Sure, it might not be legally binding, but it goes a LONG WAY towards being morally binding and that at least is a good thing.

42

You know what? I am also fat, A lousy housekeeper, and coming out of a period of poor money management. Depression can do that to a person. The thing is though, I am still treated with respect, love, (and occasional exasperation) in my marriage. I think you may have inadvertantly shown us some of the abuse you have been subjected to.

I don’t know you at all, and advice given by strangers is next to valueles, but I suggest you decide it is time to file the papers. I am willing to bet that if you are not being told you are lazy, fat, whatever, whatever, whatever, on a continuous basis, you will discover that you really are none of them. The weight may or may not fall off, but it was his excuse, not the problem.

43

Boo Foo Foo, your points about hostility and civility are taken.

I’ve been going to counseling, and am learning some communications skills that I am working hard to practice. When we’re talking on the phone and he starts to yell or argue, I tell him that I’m happy to talk about what he wants to talk about, and if he needs to yell, I’m going to hang up and we can talk when he’s ready to talk. I was over at the house on Monday evening, and we had a very pleasant time. He did start to yell once, and I determinedly stayed calm. When he said his next sentence, he started at a high volume and then worked hard to lower it.

That’s partly why I was so upset on Tuesday morning when he called me and made those accusations about me and my family. He had a very cold, hateful tone of voice when he called. He also said some ugly things about how I’m changing and trying not to allow arguing or yelling.

He was diagnosed with bipolar disorder shortly after we were married, and steadfastly refuses to believe it or to take any medication. I’ve noticed him cycling a lot more rapidly lately.

He has been very abusive verbally and emotionally, and I’ve sucked it up for years. I spent the last 9 months working in Child Protective Services, and I’ve seen and talked to women in the same situation that I’ve been in, and was shocked to realize just how badly he treats me.

As long as I were to stay at the house, I was tacitly permitting him to continue to be abusive. He wouldn’t go to counseling–with me or without me–, wouldn’t go to church, wouldn’t listen to me, put down anything I said, etc. Now that I’ve moved out and have continued to refuse to go back home unless/until we BOTH agree to work on our marriage together, and on our individual issues individually.

I grew up in an abusive family, abusive in every sense of the word (physical, verbal, sexual, emotional, etc.). I’m 41 years old now. I’m through with allowing people to hurt me that way. If my husband and I cannot learn to talk to each other without yelling and arguing, then we’re better off apart.

I don’t know what’s going to happen. He is going to counseling now, and I have hopes that it will help him. I was going to group counseling for a while, due to two major depressive episodes in the past two months, and am starting individual counseling on Thursday morning. We love each other very much. That was never the question. The question is can we learn to be civil to each other. I’ve been working very hard on being civil and assertive.

I do have some pent-up hostility. Definitely. That is why I posted on here. I felt that expressing some of that hostility is helping me to escape from the passive-aggressive mannerisms I’ve adopted in the past. It’s also helping me to stay calm when I talk to him. I appreciate hearing from other dopers–I’ve felt very alone for a very long time.

Again, thanks to you all. You don’t know how much this is helping me.

44

Boo Boo Foo, I’m sure you mean well, but are you aware of how condescending this:

sounds?

45

Indeed, with hindsight you make a valid point. Apologies to the OP for the unintentional condescension. The fact I never once intended my tone to come across that way is no excuse - perception is everything and I’m happy to concede that too.

Interestingly, it seems I’ve come very close to nailing something though. Almost everybody I’ve ever told the Family Law Magistrate anecdote to has had something about it resonate with them. Sadly however, my eagerness to tell the anecdote occasionally results in a valid tap on the shoulder as per your quote above Rilchiam.

46

'S’alright. :slight_smile:

47

This is a very impressive paragraph for mine, and a very important insight into your nature N.Sane. I agree entirely with your premise - communication skills are never static. Over time, especially in marriages, they actually degrade to the point where couples end up fighting over small things because they’ve lost the ability to articulate the big things which are the genuine underlying causes. To that end, a neutral 3rd party can often play a fantastic role in opening up channels of communication once again - especially if both parties concentrate on respecting each other’s needs.

It’s not that hard, all it takes is an effort to undo the bad learned behaviour and to replace it with superior new learned behaviour. But it DOES require both parties to understand what they PERSONALLY need to change in themselves. After all, we can’t change other people but we CAN change our own behaviour. An example of this is in the post above where Rilchiam went about things the right way, and I took on board the criticism without feeling the need to become incredibly defensive. Rilchiam asked a question, I pondered it and conceded that I could have gone about things better. That’s the way to do things - instead of pointing out other people’s flaws, Rilchiam’s technique is infinitely more productive.

You’re almost there my friend. If your husband can fall in step with the same mindset it’s a piece of cake.