Treis, no means no.

The BBQ Pit
201

I’ll spell this out for you, line by line, so you can spare yourself the humiliation of accidentally ending up on the sex offender registry.

Fun fact: this shit happens to women all of the fucking time. If we’re dancing and you accidentally graze my breast, hip, or ass, I’m not going to turn around and clock you, screaming that you’re raping me. If we’re dancing and you get a little too handy, I’m going to firmly tell you to knock it off-- if you persist, you’re a skeevy asshole. If we’re dancing and you try to “accidentally” slip your finger under my dress in an attempt to stroke my pussy, you are a skeevy asshole-- I will turn around and shout “STOP IT. DO NOT TOUCH ME LIKE THAT. I DO NOT WANT YOU PUTTING YOUR HAND UP MY DRESS” in a voice loud enough to attract attention. That last one, the slipping a hand up a skirt? That happens a lot to women in nightclubs. No mean no. There’s no ambiguity there.

Am I not a willing participant in the kiss? Did I tell you to stop? If the answers to either question is yes, then yes, it’s sexual assault. See, very clear.

Bases? Are you 15 or something?

Anyway, does she tell him to to stop? Does she say she’s uncomfortable? Does she say, “No, I don’t want you to touch me there. I don’t want to have sex tonight”? Because if the answer to any of those questions is “yes” then it’s possible that if he goes forward, he’ll be a rapist. Again, absolutely no fucking ambiguity.

Well, since she’s presumably not mute, you could always ask her. We’re all adults here. Again, let’s make sure there isn’t a hint of ambiguity by asking for clarification.

Why would you want to fuck these women? Like I said pages and pages ago, those women are crazy. Like, poke a hole in a condom crazy.

Why should we have to make the concession that our words have no meaning? Because if no doesn’t mean no, how in the wild hell can we indicate to the neanderthals fondling us that we aren’t interested? You’re certainly right that broad brushes are impractical, but if there’s even a hint of confusion or ambiguity in a sexual encounter and you aren’t sure if you have enthusiastic consent. . . fucking ask. And if you aren’t comfortable asking, either the chick is bat shit crazy and you should run for the hills or you aren’t mature enough to be doing this adult mating dance thing you’re so into.

So, your contention is that no woman ever actively says, “Yes, I want to have sex with you!”?

K.

202

Oh my fucking god… head explodes

203

What did/will you teach your daughters about guys who pressure them for sex?

204

Essentially zero? I think a majority of men can confidently say that there is a zero chance of us raping a woman without adding any qualifiers to it to keep the door open to the possibility.

205

Why, he’ll teach them to be direct and say no, of course.

Wait…

206

Give the guy a break, ladies.

He’ll equip them with rape whistles.

207

honestly you are talking to two dudes who would probably just keep their daughters chained to the radiators in their basements

man this is even grossing me out

208

This is pretty simple, and then I’m done.

Treis seems to be inseparably bound to this idea that sometimes some women say “no” when they don’t mean it, therefore it’s a good idea to treat whatever a woman says as a go, no matter how explicitly she makes her intentions clear. This is obviously horse shit, and has been addressed from every angle numerous times. Still, like the guy who may be holding onto the jarfillion (I think that was the number) dollar lottery ticket, treis can’t let ANY opportunity go! So if a woman says no to him, exhibiting zero signs of interest, and in fact makes her complete lack of interest painfully clear, he’s going to keep rubbing his dick on her anyway, because even though it’s most likely that when she’s saying no she actually means it, she *might *mean something else.

He has no concept of respecting other people. All he knows if he badgers everyone no matter what, some of the time it’ll work to his advantage. That’s a nice tactic in sales, but it’s a terrible way to treat other human beings when it comes to their sexuality and their bodies. It doesn’t matter how he makes the other person feel who has tried to be mature and direct with him. Even though when a woman says no she typically means it, her feelings and how safe she feels are completely irrelevant because he’s a scummy ass bastard.

But his is clear to anyone with a brain, so I’m going to stop wasting keystrokes with this now.

And so it is decided: treis is fucking scum. bangs gavel

209

Look, I don’t know what to tell you. I didn’t create these women, nor did I tell them to think or the act the way they do. If Lamia’s cite is to be believed, the no doesn’t mean no phenomenom occurs with 1/3 of women. Here, I’ll quote it:

So their existence is a fact, whether you like it or not.

210

There are men on the Dope who are utterly clueless in their social interactions with women? And are shitbag misogynists without even realizing it? SHOCKING.

211

No, not unless you’re assuming that the survival of the human race depends on men raping women who said “no” and meant it.

If my math is correct, based on the figures given in the Shortland and Hunter study I cited above, 63% of respondents had never said “no” when they actually wanted to have sex. 78% of these women had either never said “no” when they wanted to have sex or explicitly said “yes” after at first saying “no”. So it looks like for 78% of women then always taking them at their word will never steer you wrong.

Note that this is 78% of women, not 78% of sexual encounters. Many women who at some point said “no” when they wanted to have sex only did this on a few occasions in their lives. 84% of respondents had either never said “no” when they wanted to have sex this or had done this only once. 95% had either never done this or done it on only 1-5 occasions. So it’s really a very small percentage of women who will say “no” on multiple occasions when they want to have sex, and most of them do presumably say “yes” and mean it at some other time.

For any given encounter the odds are pretty low that a woman who’s saying “no” to sex actually wants to have sex. As I mentioned before, even in cases where this is true the woman often may be testing to make sure that her “no” will be respected, so taking her at her word is the wise thing to do both in terms of her well-being and your chances of getting her to say “yes” later (either during the same encounter or another day).

212

This is bizarre. I knew we had some clueless, inexperienced and asocial weirdos on board, hell, it’s the internet. This is an active, valid social life for some peculiar introverts and I wouldn’t discount that fact for a second. But what I didn’t realize is that they will believe everything they read/watch at the expense of a real life experience. If an actual, live girl/woman is pushing your hand away, stop it. Forget everything you’ve read. Remember when we joke about the unbelievable “Dear Penthouse” letters? This is why. Most of what you read and watch online regarding sex is pure fantasy. Don’t trust it. Plus. why in the hell would you want something as awesome as sex from someone who doesn’t want you?

Anyway, all I can figure is that the guys who aren’t so good at social maneuvers really place a high value on their seduction fantasies. Remember that girl who ignored you in 10th grade history class? If only you could slide a hand up her thigh and hook a finger under her cotton panties, she’d melt under your skillful touch like a drunken, subservient Geisha. Dudes, that’s bullshit. You’ve got to bring something to the table. No combination of “moves” or button pushing will make a reluctant girl want you inside her. She might cave out guilt after having “because blue balls!!1!” whined repeatedly in her ear. She might give in because “most girls her age are enjoying sex” and she feels she must, or maybe she’ll acquiesce because she’s afraid if she doesn’t relax and let this happen: you’ll hit her or tear that delicate tissue. If she gives in, at least she’s exercising some shred of control and can pretend later that she allowed it to happen. Because the alternative is a terrifying nightmare, PTSD guaranteed. Still, I have to wonder again, why in the hell would you take something as awesome as sex from someone who isn’t enthusiastically all over you, eager to please you, and just as excited as you are?

Ah, hell, nevermind. I know why you guys want to take it. We all know. Because your delicate egos need to believe that the girl you are about to mercilessly plow is a virgin or damn close to it. And if she’s hesitant, reluctant, or fearful, you get to pretend a bigger dick hasn’t reamed her out and left her screaming in ecstasy before you got there. Okay, okay, we get it. You want to overpower the virgin and seduce the haughty cheerleader who wouldn’t give you the time of day in Geometry.

For the rest of you guys who are only entertaining seduction fantasies and haven’t yet overpowered a woman, please consider this. Later in life, when you are past the stage where we refer to “bases” and fret over virginity, you will find and maybe fall in love with women who will cater to your seduction fantasy. Dress up in plaid minis, blush prettily, and shove your hand away with quickened breath and soaked panties because though she is playing: she really, really wants you in there, maybe even wants it all over her face, maybe even wants her hair pulled a little. Maybe wants to be ordered around and told what to do, and will be crazy excited by that game. That’s got to be more rewarding, right? Please tell me being breathlessly, frantically desired by a willing woman trumps forcefully plugging yourself into a dry, reluctant hole. Please tell me at least some of you will wait for that.

213

An invitation to enter one’s domicile is not a tacit suggestion of openness to a sexual encounter. Rather, the act of accepting such an invitation seals a contract binding on both parties, one that can be broken only under threat of harsh legal penalties. Once I briefly forgot this and invited a deliveryman into my foyer — we … promised never to speak of it again. Suffice it to say that I advise extreme caution. Mean Old Lady was lucky that the skeevy gentleman in her story was unaware of their shared obligations.

I think what he’s saying is that the event of his raping someone has measure zero, so he’s almost sure he’d never rape anyone. Oh, man, I crack myself up. Or I would if this discussion weren’t about rape.

214

I have never ever claimed that a firm no meant anything but no. My point is that “signals” also play a part and exceptions can occur. This was inspired by someone from the previous page saying that “signals” is a “hollywood” construct and that they don’t mean shit. You get that “yes” or “no” and you get it with no uncertain terms.

But sure, let’s employ lavish amounts of hyperbole and declare the entire world pussy-hungry sex clowns and that every person who even questions “no means no” as a rapist and a clueless socially inept virgin asshat rapist at that.

It’s also very handy to dismiss the women who don’t subscribe to this (rational) brand of straightforwardness as crazy and negligible. Those women don’t wear rubber wristbands that say “CrazyStrong” on it. In fact many of those women are very good at hiding their crazy. It’ll all come tumbling out when you say she’s fine with you going out on a guys’ night but secretly she’s not because she already bought a groupon for you two to go on date night but didn’t tell you she bought the groupon and then is pissed off for a month after, resenting you and your guy friends… etc. Well shit. Those women exist. They may not be the majority of women, but they are out there and in significant numbers.

What I was driving at with the hypotheticals (probably unsuccessfully) was that no doesn’t always mean no especially in the context of nonsexual aspects of relationships. In the bedroom “no” should always mean no but the severity of it ranges to “no, not there” to “no, not doggy” to “no, not tonight” to “no, possibly never again because I’m harboring some deep seeded resentment towards you”. It’d be wonderful of the woman can elaborate but a lot of the time it just comes out as “no.” or “stop” or even just a inarticulate groan. But again… most of my (alleged) partners have not been as vocal, forthright, or detailed as some of the women on this board.

In the context of MOL - “nothing is happening tonight” might have been construed as “no, you’re not staying over” to “no, you’re not getting sex” to “no, you’re not getting even a kiss”. The problem now comes in assessing the error. The judgment comes in two phases. One is if he is wrong. The second questions how wrong. There’s no doubt that he’s wrong. The interpretations of how wrong it was ranges from misunderstanding, to willful and malicious assholeness to sexual assault of a severe degree.

Please agree with me that there are varying degrees of sexual assault.

edit to add response regarding my unborn daughters:
By all means. No means no. I would also hope that they don’t rely on words alone and understand to be smart, and defensive about their surroundings. It has less to do with freedom to be a woman but rather understand that we live in a society with all sorts of people existing on a spectrum of wildly different norms and expectations. Be free but also have wherewithal and empathy. Just as people drive inconsiderately and talk inconsiderately, they will sex inconsiderately as well. Rape whistle and mace will be at her own discretion.

215

It is extremely skeevy to read through this thread and realize that there are dudes who believe that in a real-life situation – real life, not the movies, not a TV show, not a novel – sometimes when a woman very clearly and unequivocally says “I’m not into you and we’re not having sex,” she means “I’m up for sex.” So it’s OK to keep nagging and pushing and cajoling her. WTF, y’all.

edit:

What? No. “Nothing is happening tonight” means nothing is happening tonight. Nothing. No things. Things that will be happening tonight = zero. No kissing, no groping, no fondling, no sexing, no staying over. This is not a difficult or complicated concept. Again, WTF.

216

I can’t even wrap my head around reading that OP thinking “mixed signals”.

If flat out saying before hand that you’re only letting someone into your apartment to get out of the rain, and then specifically saying you’re not interested in sex, and then repeatedly rebuffing their advances is “mixed signals”, what the hell is a clear signal? Does she have to just like stab you or something?

217

that’s an awfully funny way of spelling “I am an incredible piece of shit.”

218

Let’s assume for a moment that’s true - that when MOL told him nothing was going to happen tonight, he thought he might still get to make out with her. Pretty much the instant he makes his move, she rebuffs his advances. Over. And over. And over. He’s trying to touch her legs while she’s clearly uncomfortable. She’s moving away from him. It’s obvious he doesn’t give a fuck what she wants. Jesus Christ.

219

No, don’t be silly! There are plenty of ways to send a clear signal. She could make herself extremely obese, ugly, or otherwise undesirable; taking massive quantities of Rogaine and avoiding showers works for some people. Alternatively, she could not leave her residence except to go to work. Please bear in mind: nothing says “fuck me, no matter what I say” quite like a woman being present and not unpleasant to look at.

220

Work? Please. How will she ever be able to talk to her boss with the office door closed? Remember, the real world is a dangerous!!!

She should just stay home and menstruate doilies or whatever the fuck bitches do