It’s not even an analogy, you useless hair parade. It’s the same fucking thing.
But they’ll be slide whistles, to make things more fun.
You know, this discussion is really getting to me. If I weren’t married I’d throw you one, just to prove that women who really want it are out there and worth looking for.
This thread is so disturbing that I’m coming out of lurking. Let me rewrite some of Lamia’s post in more digestible bites.
- 37% of respondents agreed that they had, on at least one occasion, said “no” to sex with a man when they actually did want to have sex.
Of these:
-
83% are actually recalling encounters where they initially did not want to have sex but then changed their minds after some time had passed (other encounters) and then explicitely said yes.
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40% who explicitely said yes in the SAME encounter were with a man they had been dating for some time and were at a evolving point in their relationship.
Slightly > 50% of the women had BAD EXPERIENCES WHERE THEY HAD SEX THEY TRULY DIDN’T WANT IN THE PAST. These were twice as likely as women who had never done this to have been raped. In other words, they were SCARED to have sex even if they were sexually excited.
There may be other women out there who are not very experienced and they’re scared and hesitant.
So, hey, those are the ones you push harder with.
Seriously, I’m having bad date flashbacks now.
I don’t recognize how saying an unwanted kiss and and an unwanted penis is the same difference between chicken and beef tacos. I have said in just about every post in this thread that I think what MOL’s date did was flat out wrong. No arguments here.
I’m merely commenting on the differences that I hold on sexual assault vs everyone else. It is genuinely surprising where things tilt from bad to worse. To me, a forced kiss is bad but completely different from penetration, be it finger or penis. It seems like from the backlash that a forced kiss is enough to be labeled a sexual criminal - not just by the letter of the law but in the full spirit of the law too. To me, it’s almost apples and oranges but to others it’s two items of the same sexual menu.
Sorry. To you, maybe. To me, it’s not. A woman forcing a kiss on me, I can shrug off. A man forcing a kiss on me would be much tougher to get over. It’s surprising that you think that gender has no bearing on violating personal space and that the sexual component is negligible to the privacy component.
That being said, even if a man were to kiss me without my consent, I would be pissed but it would be a completely different level of rage, resentment, shame, etc. than if he tried to put something up my ass. I would not label the two acts differing degrees of the same crime. One is a misdemeanor, the other is a full out felony. That is where the disconnect comes. That’s what I mean but “just a kiss”. I’m not saying you ladies should lighten up - it’s just a kiss. I’m saying that it’s a break from MY reality/expectations that kisses and penetration reside so closely in your minds to the point that it looks like absolute hyperbole. But I guess not.
Maybe I am just a neanderthal bumbling my way through this very modern world. Maybe every other guy out there sees no difference between a repulsive man kissing him vs a repulsive woman kissing him. Maybe I am an **asshole **because I feel this way. Maybe women just see a mouth coming at them and have preference to the genitalia attached. I’m not trying to troll, or rile people up, or be a jackass. It’s just that the overwhelming vocal majority on this thread are putting forth some very controversial stances (in my opinion).
I… I love this. So much.
I… I love this. So much.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t.
Your words say no, but your font says please bring out your penis.
We are talking about how women feel when they are overwhelmed by a member of a gender that is stronger than them and generally socialized to be more aggressive. Those are both extremely important aspects of the whole experience of sexual assault, and of course if you are imagining a woman kissing you or a mermaid gently caressing your cheek or whatever idiotic thing you’re on about now then of course it is not going to have the same traumatic effect on you as it does on a woman.
What the hell is wrong with you? Were you raised by a can of Progresso? You seem to have no understanding of normal human feelings or social interactions. You’re a goddamn mess.
But you are ignoring the fact that gender is also an important aspect of experiencing sexual assault. If you are assaulted by a person with the same gender as you, and you are straight, then it is worse, because now the assaulting person is not the gender of which you are attracted to.
It would be a fairer comparison (not analogy) to ask pancakes3 how he would feel if he was sexually assaulted by a stronger, more aggressive, and larger woman (even though this is a very unlikely hypothetical).
Do you even bother to read replies or do you just make baseless assumptions couched in insults?
I HAVE been forcibly kissed by women - a couple who are larger than me and I acknowledge that it was unpleasant. I even consented to the hypothetical of a man forcibly kissing on me. It’s a completely different ballgame compared to penetration. TO ME. Apparently it’s not that different to you.
Yeah, I must be some sort of chromosonal deficient deviant because I acknowledge that things exist on a spectrum instead of binary. What special brand of rape-autism did the Nazi doctors administer to me in vitro for me to have such wild and nonsensical thoughts regarding kissing someone instead of buttfucking them.
WTF? No. It’s not better to get assaulted by a man if you’re a straight woman than it is to get assaulted by a woman. I may be attracted to men, but I’m sure as fuck not attracted to a man who is assaulting me.
I understand that this is essentially gladiatorial combat at this point and it doesn’t matter what it’s about, but for the record it seems like everything pancakes is talking about by now is a total non sequitur. People are arguing about it with him because it’s stupid, but it doesn’t have anything to do with anything.
There’s not an argument going on about whether there’s a difference between forcible penetration and a kiss that goes on too long, or whether it’s hotter to get assaulted by a chick if you’re a chick, or whatever. That’s just some bullshit pancakes started talking about for some reason after Lamia posted that study. It doesn’t fucking matter whether pancakes would feel differently if I was all up in his grill trying to put the moves on instead of a woman (which he would, because I gets down for mine), or whether there’s a fictional person out there who thinks there’s no difference between trying to slip a little tongue into it vs. grabbing his joint. It doesn’t matter because the fucking point is he would want it to stop, and if he couldn’t make it stop it would be awful. And if he didn’t want it and said he didn’t want it, that’s the end of that story, and the end of his culpability. And he’s never had to think about that, and because he’s never had to, he doesn’t. He is refusing even now to do it. It takes ten seconds, if you take it seriously, to realize how fucking terrible that situation is. That was miss elizabeth’s point.
I’m not getting a lot of that in this thread. And I think it’s weird that you thought my post was an example of hyperbole, when basically all I was doing was describing to you the encounter. Rape is worse than a forced kiss. I think we can all agree to that, and I would be honestly shocked if someone here did not. That doesn’t make a forced kiss okay.
Look, things are going to feel different ways to different people. I don’t want to drag my personal experiences too much into this, but as a person with PTSD I can tell you a forced kiss can really fuck you up for a while. It’s not just ‘‘unpleasant.’’ Especially if you have a history of trauma it can be pretty fucking traumatic. When you are alone with a man twice your size and you are already conditioned to just freeze and hope it’s over soon, it’s scary. Is it as bad as rape? No. But I don’t think that should be where we set the bar for making women feel uncomfortable. I’m not saying that’s every woman’s experience, but I am a woman and it was my experience. I don’t think you will ever understand that fear and feeling of helplessness, as hard as you try. That’s okay, you don’t have to relate in order to be supportive.
Some of the comments you have made make you sound like you’re trying to minimalize the very real fear many women have when they are forcibly kissed, or groped, or whatever. We wouldn’t be here bitching about it if it didn’t impact us in a significant way.
[QUOTE=Anon]
But you are ignoring the fact that gender is also an important aspect of experiencing sexual assault. If you are assaulted by a person with the same gender as you, and you are straight, then it is worse, because now the assaulting person is not the gender of which you are attracted to.
[/QUOTE]
I think that is an unwarranted assumption.
Lost love is the most common regret of all people. Not to justify that behavior, just saying.
Lost love ≠ missed vagina or missed penis. In my opinion.
So to you, there is no difference in getting sexually assaulted by stronger, more aggressive, and larger woman than in getting sexually assaulted by a stronger, more aggressive, and larger man?
Or if there is, which scenario do you feel is worse?
I’ve never been sexually assaulted by a woman, but I don’t see why it would be better or worse. The chances of her being so much stronger than me are smaller (I am strong like bull!), so if I were forced to choose I’d choose the woman just because I’d like my odds better, but otherwise, it’s sexual assault.
And it’s not better to be assaulted by a cute guy than an ugly one.
By your logic, if a gay man is raped by a man, that’s better than if a straight man is raped by a man. Or that it’s better for a straight man to be shot by a woman than shot by a man. When you’re under attack, you aren’t thinking, “Gosh, this person is kinda hot.”
You owe me a keyboard.
There’s certainly a difference, but it’s not a matter of ‘‘worseness.’’ There may be some different issues that come up with one compared to the other, but rape is traumatic, period. I’ve done a fair amount of reading of the scientific literature on trauma and really one of the most critical things that people misunderstand is that the actual circumstances of the trauma are less relevant to psychological damage than the way people respond to it afterward. It all comes down to how supported the victim feels and how s/he thinks about what happened. The more victim-blaming, the worse the psychological damage is likely to be. You can’t, therefore, assume that Person A’s experience was worse than Person B’s based on something like the gender of the perpetrator.