Treis, no means no.

[colander]

I also would like to say that I am sorry for insulting Living Well Is Best Revenge and I hope we have all made it out of this fracas having learned something about life, love, laughter, patience, mercy and not doing any rapes. Thanks also to men like RickJay and Irishman and Frylock and everyone else fighting the good fight.

@panaccione

So I guess it just comes down to men and women playing their parts like they should. When we do that, everyone goes home happy. When they don’t, the shit hits the fan.

I think men need to listen more. No means no, always. There is no rationalization acceptable.

I think the issue arises here because it goes against the very nature of most people. We are persistent in our goals. We don’t ask for things, we assume we can have them. We don’t like told being, “No.” Actually, we like it when people tell us we can’t do something, and then we prove them wrong. Anybody who’s been in Sales knows what I’m talking about. In many everyday situations, these are actually wonderful qualities to have. However, one has to question the worth of your goal.

I think it comes down to empowering women. Women need to be fully responsible for their safety in all cases. This means being strong enough to be called a “slut” or “whore” and not be offended. These terms are meaningless and people only throw them around when they’re angry and jealous.

Lastly, sometimes men are just going to try to force the situation. In my opinion, women should be prepared for this. Have a support network. Have your father, brother, friend, roomate, 911 on speed dial. Learn self defense and don’t be afraid to throw a punch. Carry mace. Carry a knife. Carry a gun. I know this is easy for me to say, but this is part of the reason men hesitate to fuck with other men when they have something they want. Fear is a powerful emotion.

pannacione, you keep saying that you’ve changed for the better and then you go ahead and say the same crappy stuff you’ve always said. It’s like you haven’t understood any of this discussion at all. I am at a loss for words. “Everyone playing their parts like they should”? Women need to be “strong enough” to be called “slut” and “whore” without being offended? Women should all carry armories in their purses or they’re not being “responsible for their own safety”? What the hell.

[DiosaBellissima]

@panaccione

Earlier, I had mentioned the idea of prostitution to perhaps alleviate some of the stress and frustration that guys are feeling, You know, Sexual Healing when masturbation does not suffice. Now, I’m not so sure. I don’t know how much of a difference that would have made in my life when it’s not really the sex that I crave, but the companionship. It’s the loneliness that drives you crazy, not the lack of orgasm. Plus, when you consider the potential for the warped mindset that could occur as a result of prostitution, it gives me pause.

So, we’re all here talking about the countless times we’ve been sexually assaulted in our lives, explaining that we were conditioned by society about the whole thing. Assaults that for many of us started when we were children.

And you fucking come in and post “Sexual Healing” by motherfucking Marvin Gaye. *Seriously? *

@panaccione

I’m still on the fence on it, though. I still fully believe in the autonomy of ones body and the freedom for adults to make their own choices. But, would it really be effective? I don’t know, and I don’t claim to speak for every guy out there.

You’re right. I ultimately shouldn’t have bodily autonomy because it’s in effective and you have an erection and are lonely. Gosh, why didn’t I think of how lonely that poor teacher who wanted to tie me up in the park was? How cruel and thoughtless of me.

@panaccione

I think men need to listen more. No means no, always. There is no rationalization acceptable.

See? This is good. So, stop rationalizing.

@panaccione

I think the issue arises here because it goes against the very nature of most people. We are persistent in our goals. We don’t ask for things, we assume we can have them.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t think rape is in the nature of most people. Most people want to have fun sex with willing participants. Most people aren’t so self entitled that they think they somehow deserve everything in the world they possibly want.

Seriously: ***why would you want to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you? ***

[Zeriel]

@panaccione

I think the issue arises here because it goes against the very nature of most people. We are persistent in our goals. We don’t ask for things, we assume we can have them. We don’t like told being, “No.” Actually, we like it when people tell us we can’t do something, and then we prove them wrong.

A lot of this is less “the very nature of most people” and more “how men are socialized in our society”, which is one of the many reasons you’re getting so much pushback.

[Spice_Weasel]

@panaccione

I think it comes down to empowering women. Women need to be fully responsible for their safety in all cases. This means being strong enough to be called a “slut” or “whore” and not be offended. These terms are meaningless and people only throw them around when they’re angry and jealous.

That’s the second time I’ve seen you mention those words and I’m curious what significance you attach to them? I’ve never been particularly offended by either word.

[wonky]

@panaccione

I think it comes down to empowering women. Women need to be fully responsible for their safety in all cases. This means being strong enough to be called a “slut” or “whore” and not be offended. These terms are meaningless and people only throw them around when they’re angry and jealous.

What does being “fully responsible for their safety in all cases” mean?

[Sparky_the_Wonder_Spirit]

@panaccione

I think the issue arises here because it goes against the very nature of most people. We are persistent in our goals. We don’t ask for things, we assume we can have them. We don’t like told being, “No.” Actually, we like it when people tell us we can’t do something, and then we prove them wrong. Anybody who’s been in Sales knows what I’m talking about. In many everyday situations, these are actually wonderful qualities to have. However, one has to question the worth of your goal.

Do you even realize that you’re equating women to “things”?

@olivesmarch4th

That’s the second time I’ve seen you mention those words and I’m curious what significance you attach to them? I’ve never been particularly offended by either word.

He thinks that legalized/destigmatized prostitution would end rape.

[Anaamika]

I am pretty sure that every woman has been touched and fondled inappropriately once in their life. I have gone through my entire life without being raped. I am lucky, I guess.

I always do the so-called “right” things. I don’t go to clubs. I don’t get drunk around strange men. I don’t wander at night. I don’t go to men’s apartments. I endeavor not to be alone with anyone I don’t know. I don’t dress sexy in front of my male boss.

**Which is why telling us to do the “right” things is frankly, so much bullshit. **Because even after all that I have been fondled and molested. Once by my own dad. Now if that’s not a man thinking he had a right to touch someone without asking their permission nothing is. I am grateful he came to his senses but it still happened three times. Once was in high school. I was at my locker, going through my stuff, and a boy ran by and grabbed my crotch, roughly, and ran off. I found it later they did it to all the freshmen. That’s right, I was fourteen.

Once I got a phone call. A man answered and asked for my dad. I was about eight, and had been taught never to say I was home alone, so I said he was in the shower. What did he say? “Why don’t you join him in there, honey?” in the most laviscious tone imaginable. I’m 37 and haven’t forgotten that call.

And the sad thing is? Those are the incidents that stand out in my mind. I don’t even remember the times a guy thought he could grab a little too much, kiss even when I didn’t want to, touch where he wasn’t allowed. Those things all fade because we all get them.

My autistic friend got groped walking through a sliding door. I tell you this: she is not pretty. Not at all. But for no reason at all, some man decided it was OK to grab her ass and squeeze, hard.

We’re not even counting the comments now. Comments yelled from a car, or as you’re walking down the street. When I see a group of young men milling around, I cross the street.

And yet I still sleep with men and still want them. Go figure. :rolleyes: Now that I’m grown up I can handle myself and have less fear. But you know, I love my SO and I trust him completely, but we were play-wrestling one day a few weeks ago and I was reminded once again that if he wasn’t the good man he was and decided to do something I could not fight him. I outweigh him but he is taller than me…but he is so much stronger than me. And that’s how it is all the time. Every man (almost) is stronger than me. So you get a few of these incidents in your life and you become cautious. And then we get scolded for being aware - not afraid, but aware - of our surroundings everywhere we go. And when we let our guard down, we get scolded for that, too.

[Shodan]

@jsgoddess

What does being “fully responsible for their safety in all cases” mean?

Not sure what he means by it.

One part might be, if someone complains about you taking steps to protect yourself, not to give a tin shit.

The men who whine when they notice you have pepper spray, or the means to defend yourself, do not mean you well and do not need to be treated as if they were significant.

Regards,
Shodan

[Frylock]

@panaccione

I think the issue arises here because it goes against the very nature of most people. We are persistent in our goals. We don’t ask for things, we assume we can have them.

You might not be normal. I don’t mean this as snark, I think it’s possible I’m actually informing you of something, and I mean it sincerely and constructively. If the above is what you assume is typical, then you might not be normal.

I do not think most people “assume” they “can have” the things they want. I think most people do ask for things when there is someone to ask.

[R3d_Anonymous]

@Anaamika

Once I got a phone call. A man answered and asked for my dad. I was about eight, and had been taught never to say I was home alone, so I said he was in the shower. What did he say? “Why don’t you join him in there, honey?” in the most laviscious tone imaginable. I’m 37 and haven’t forgotten that call.

Okay, that made me laugh. Sorry.

[Frylock]

@Anaamika

Once by my own dad. Now if that’s not a man thinking he had a right to touch someone without asking their permission nothing is. I am grateful he came to his senses but it still happened three times.

I am speechless upon reading this. That you can refer to him without cursing in anger is amazing to me.

To me it’s almost worse that he “came to his senses,” which I know sounds weird, but it’s like, this proves it was an open issue for him all along, that he didn’t just follow some pattern made instinctive in him by a bad upbringing or something, but rather, that he considered whether he should do it, and for some amount of time, came to the conclusion that it was just fine! I mean wtf.

Sorry, not my business I know.

My autistic friend got groped walking through a sliding door. I tell you this: she is not pretty. Not at all. But for no reason at all, some man decided it was OK to grab her ass and squeeze, hard.

Uh yeah so heh heh I’m walking into it here but I want to note that something I’ve never understood about my (apparently almost universally very rapey) gender cohort is this tendency to grope (or do something worse to) pretty much any female. I myself, can just barely imagine being tempted to do something like this* to someone I was very angry with or something, maybe, just tempted, but even then, surely I could only be tempted if they were like, really super attractive.

I really seriously just do not get simply wanting to touch an ass, any ass, doesn’t matter who’s ass. This is utterly beyond me.

*ETA I should clarify I mean groping or something, not rape.

[panaccione]

@DiosaBellissima

And you fucking come in and post “Sexual Healing” by motherfucking Marvin Gaye. *Seriously? *

Yeah, I tried to delete that but missed the edit window. That was in poor taste. Sorry.

[Anaamika]

@Anonymous User

Okay, that made me laugh. Sorry.

It makes me laugh now, too. It didn’t make me laugh at eight.

@Frylock

I am speechless upon reading this. That you can refer to him without cursing in anger is amazing to me.

To me it’s almost worse that he “came to his senses,” which I know sounds weird, but it’s like, this proves it was an open issue for him all along, that he didn’t just follow some pattern made instinctive in him by a bad upbringing or something, but rather, that he considered whether he should do it, and for some amount of time, came to the conclusion that it was just fine! I mean wtf.

Sorry, not my business I know.

I shared it, which in some way makes it your business. When I say he “came to his senses”, I don’t really know if he did or not. All I know is that he stopped. But it fucked up our relationship forever (obviously). He’s old now and I see him regularly but how can I ever forget those three incidents? Three times when I loved my dad so much that I couldn’t even comprehend that I was in the right and he was in the wrong.

It’s not something that I talk about a lot, not because it still bothers me or anything but because there really isn’t jack shit I can do about it. Like many people, I chose to remain quiet because it “wasn’t that bad” and because it would have destroyed our family.

Am I angry? …Not as such. Just really really sad about it. This is a man who took in someone else’s daughter (I was adopted, born out of wedlock) and gave me his name and sheltered me from the cruelty of living in India without a dad and having been born out of wedlock. He did a great deal for me. I feel so sad that all of that wasn’t all the memories I have of him, that I also have these other dirty memories in my head, too.

As to the grabbing anyone’s ass, yes, that has made me :dubious: too.

[DiosaBellissima]

@panaccione

Yeah, I tried to delete that but missed the edit window. That was in poor taste. Sorry.

You know what would be easier than repeatedly apologizing for vomiting stupid and offensive shit that’s in poor taste all over threads where people are having productive, meaningful discussions? *Thinking about what you post before you post. *

You keep posting stupid shit and apologizing. Why not just not post stupid shit?

[Azeotrope]

@panaccione

I think it comes down to empowering women. Women need to be fully responsible for their safety in all cases. This means being strong enough to be called a “slut” or “whore” and not be offended. These terms are meaningless and people only throw them around when they’re angry and jealous.

Lastly, sometimes men are just going to try to force the situation. In my opinion, women should be prepared for this. Have a support network. Have your father, brother, friend, roomate, 911 on speed dial. Learn self defense and don’t be afraid to throw a punch. Carry mace. Carry a knife. Carry a gun. I know this is easy for me to say, but this is part of the reason men hesitate to fuck with other men when they have something they want. Fear is a powerful emotion.

Oh, panaccione, that was a good post until you added this.

You might as well tell black people to just shrug it off when they get called “nigger” or gay men not to get upset about being called “faggot.” Just because you might not think insults should hurt doesn’t mean they don’t.

I’m lucky enough never to have faced a violent sexual assault, though I have had the (unfortunately) typical gropes, unwanted kisses, and guys who wouldn’t take “no” for an answer if you engraved it on a Louisville Slugger and clubbed them right in the eyes with it. I do have a friend who almost got raped (she managed to run away when he answered his cell phone)

In truth, you don’t know how you’ll react to it until it happens, and by then it might be too late, even if you have 10th Dan black belts in every single martial art and were personally annointed High Supreme Karate Princess of Kungfoonia by Pat Morita himself. If you choke, or are badly outnumbered, or the dude has a knife or gun, or he’s got you pinned down and you can’t get him off you because he’s just much larger and heavier than you are, you’re done.

Speaking of knives and guns, a weapon is worth precisely jack shit if you can’t get to it or the attacker manages to get it off of you and turn it on you instead.

Ditto for someone on speed dial. If the phone’s in your purse in the living room and some shitbag has you cornered in the bathroom, you can’t exactly call the cavalry for backup. And how the hell’s that supposed to work, anyway? “Hey, big brother, it’s me. Listen, there’s this guy here at the club who keeps trying to feel me up so can you come over and make him quit it?”

Yeah, that’s empowering.

So, instead of asking women to suck up the insults and depend on either tools or other people for help, why don’t men just realize that they are owed some lovin’ by precisely no-fucking-one and learn to take a woman’s words at face value?

[panaccione]

@panaccione

Yeah, I tried to delete that but missed the edit window. That was in poor taste. Sorry.

Also, I asked a mod to delete the hyperlink but that’s against policy. I was trying to make a light-hearted joke but that was in poor taste. Again, very sorry.

[panaccione]

@DiosaBellissima

I don’t know about you, but I don’t think rape is in the nature of most people. Most people want to have fun sex with willing participants. Most people aren’t so self entitled that they think they somehow deserve everything in the world they possibly want.

Seriously: ***why would you want to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you? ***

I don’t. Have you ever heard the term “assume the close?” It’s very common in sales.

[Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge]

@panaccione

Also, I asked a mod to delete the hyperlink but that’s against policy. I was trying to make a light-hearted joke but that was in poor taste. Again, very sorry.

I get that you are trying to better yourself, but I think at this point you would be best served by not posting anymore here and just reading what others have to say.

[panaccione]

@DiosaBellissima

You know what would be easier than repeatedly apologizing for vomiting stupid and offensive shit that’s in poor taste all over threads where people are having productive, meaningful discussions? *Thinking about what you post before you post. *

You keep posting stupid shit and apologizing. Why not just not post stupid shit?

Cause I’m fucking stupid sometimes, I guess.

[Anaamika]

@ugly ripe tomato

Ditto for someone on speed dial. If the phone’s in your purse in the living room and some shitbag has you cornered in the bathroom, you can’t exactly call the cavalry for backup. And how the hell’s that supposed to work, anyway? “Hey, big brother, it’s me. Listen, there’s this guy here at the club who keeps trying to feel me up so can you come over and make him quit it?”

And who do you call against your dad?