Treis, no means no.

[Gagundathar]

Y’all, I am so angry right now I could spit.
I only had my small cohort as a sample.
Daughters had spoken to me about this obliquely and wife somewhat less so… but TWENTYFIVEPERCENT!

No idea. I had no idea. It is a wonder any of you love men.

I am ashamed to be human at times.

What can I do? I teach all of the children around here to respect each other regardless of their sex. As they grow older, I will coordinate with the other parental-units to make certain that this is less probable.

What do we tell the young boys? When do we tell them, ‘no, means no’? I have already started with the 8 year old boys who look up to me. They know already, and know that we won’t tolerate such behavior. We, as in their parents and the rest of the community. But, I don’t have any teenagers right now. Whew. That’s going to be a challenge… again.

Hey, but y’all will be here, and I can always ask questions of enlightened people, right?

25%. That has to change, y’all. That is so unacceptable.

[Spice_Weasel]

@jsgoddess

It’s exhausting, isn’t it?

It is, which is why I’ve taken a break from this board at times. Sometimes I can just let it roll off my back but other times… not so much.

It just makes me close my eyes and think about all the amazing men in my life. My husband and my friends, hell, even my boss would never dream of treating women this way. I just have to think about all the good guys, because there are many to which these ideas would never even occur.

And I admire anyone who tries to fight their own ignorance, especially on an issue this important.

[Dangerosa]

@maggenpye

No. This weekend just gone. She’s 70 and arthritic, he’s 50 and drunk. It took her a long and painful time to fight him off.

“Just havin’ a laff.”

I’ve been following all these threads but right now I’m just too tired and angry to fight the same fight for the umpteenth time. I’m sorry. I feel I should be supporting the wonderful and articulate men and women on this board who are still trying to get the message across:

No means no.

Oh, I’m not saying I have zero risk, just that I have less risk than when I was 24, going to clubs and didn’t have my “don’t fuck with me” game face.

[treis]

I think it’s interesting the way people react to information they don’t like. This thread has pretty much hit all the hallmarks:

Shoot the messenger (treis must be one of those guys!)

Attempt to discredit the evidence (Those women must be timid and weak)

Apply logical fallacies (Me and my friends aren’t like this, therefore it doesn’t exist)

Ignore corroborating evidence (Latia’s cite has been essentially ignored)

Simply restate the contention (No treis, no means no)

But the reality is that none of these counter the substance of the argument. And to be clear, I’m not basing this off of Hollywood, the PUA movement, or anything else. I am basing this on my experiences.

To reiterate one example, I fooled around with a women, asked if she wanted to have sex, she said no, and we stopped. I later slept with her and asked why we didn’t have sex the first night. She told me she wanted to, but didn’t want me to think she was a slut. So in this particular case, no did not mean no. It meant yes I want to, but something is stopping me.

So when you ask me if no always means no, I think back to that example and others and say no. What other conclusion can I come to? That women exists, she said those words to me, and I have no reason to believe she was lying. Am I supposed to simply discount these experiences because the SDMB wants no to always mean no.

I understand why people want “no always means no” to be true. There are guys out there that simply use “she really wants it” to be dicks. But facts are facts. Their validity doesn’t change because there are negative repercussions to them being true. Nor is one an asshole because they assert them to be true.

[Dangerosa]

@redtail23

Living Well Is Best Revenge, you’re a class act.

Sorry that things got so snarky before, but hopefully now you understand a little better why people get so angry about this issue.

I am impressed that you’ve taken the time and made the effort to listen despite the snark, and even more so that you’re willing to change your attitude on the issue.

Yeah, be careful how you ask those questions, but I’m confident that you’ll hear similar answers. So many women don’t even count the occasional grope or pinch or grab because “that’s just how it is”.

And because “it isn’t rape” and we are told because it isn’t rape, it isn’t a big deal - like the standard for acceptable behavior with a woman is “can I be prosecuted?”

[Gagundathar]

Perhaps the concept of consensual sex should be more carefully considered by both parties.
Humanity created language to communicate with each other.
That is what ‘no means no’ means.

Playful flirting is fine, but there IS a line.
Or, there should be.

It is entirely up to everyone to define that.
And to remember it, even when hormonal, limbic system overrides try to kick in.
That is what being a human is supposed to be.
Rational, not rationalizing.

But, sadly that is not very common.

25%?

That is going to take a while to assimilate.

[Dangerosa]

No Treis, she didn’t want to have sex with you that night. For her own reasons - whether she told you the truth, she was afraid of what you would think of her, or because she had her own “I don’t want to think I’m a slut myself” hangup, or because she wanted you to show a level of intimacy and commitment that you’d stay around for a second date (second night), or for whatever other reason she chose not to tell you.

If she wanted to have sex with you - and you were willing - she would have had sex with you. Whatever her reason was, it overrode her lust.

I certainly buy that she lusted after you, that she had sexual attraction to you, that she like to jump your bones. But the fact that she didn’t means that some other factor than desire was at play. Otherwise, you would have gotten lucky.

Now, perhaps her hangups weren’t - in your mind - valid. Yet, they were for her, and she gets to say yes or no. Perhaps she is posting to a message board saying “you know, I regret not putting out that first night.” Although in all the stories about regretted sex and outright assault I’ve heard from girlfriends, I’ve never heard one say “I should have jumped him earlier.”

[wonky]

@treis

Shoot the messenger (treis must be one of those guys!)

Your claim is that you are one of those guys. You wouldn’t do to the same for me, but I’ll take you at your word.

[Giraffe]

@treis

To reiterate one example, I fooled around with a women, asked if she wanted to have sex, she said no, and we stopped. I later slept with her and asked why we didn’t have sex the first night. She told me she wanted to, but didn’t want me to think she was a slut. So in this particular case, no did not mean no. It meant yes I want to, but something is stopping me.

I…don’t understand. You do realize that people can want to do things but still choose not to do them, right? If you ask me if I want cake for dinner and I say no, you don’t have to hook me up to a lie detector to find out if I think cake would taste good or not. Because it doesn’t matter: there aren’t any reasons for not eating cake for dinner I can have that you get to disregard as invalid.

That women didn’t want to have sex with you. You know how you can tell? You asked her to have sex and she declined. You later found out that she was tempted to have sex with you, but her sexual identity at the time was more important to her than giving in to that temptation. You clearly seem to think that her not wanting to look like a slut was a stupid, dismissible reason, but it’s still her call to make.

How can anyone not understand this?

[MandaJo]

@treis

To reiterate one example, I fooled around with a women, asked if she wanted to have sex, she said no, and we stopped. I later slept with her and asked why we didn’t have sex the first night. She told me she wanted to, but didn’t want me to think she was a slut. So in this particular case, no did not mean no. It meant yes I want to, but something is stopping me.

So when you ask me if no always means no, I think back to that example and others and say no. What other conclusion can I come to? That women exists, she said those words to me, and I have no reason to believe she was lying. Am I supposed to simply discount these experiences because the SDMB wants no to always mean no.

Because the fact that she secretly wanted to have sex with you (taking her at her word) doesn’t mean you screwed up when you didn’t push it. I mean, if I am horribly torn about my own craven materialism and I secretly would be kinda relieved if my house burnt down, that doesn’t mean setting my house on fire would be ok, or make a person less of an arsonist.

Let’s say there is a 50% chance that “no” means 'yes" and 50% chance it means “no”. Is passing up perfectly good sex really so tragic that it’s worth risking being a complete asshole for?

[redtail23]

@treis

To reiterate one example, I fooled around with a women, asked if she wanted to have sex, she said no, and we stopped. I later slept with her and asked why we didn’t have sex the first night. She told me she wanted to, but didn’t want me to think she was a slut. So in this particular case, no did not mean no. It meant yes I want to, but something is stopping me.

treis, my coworker brought some cookies today. I really, really, really want a cookie. I had one earlier and they were incredibly good, and I’ve been craving those cookies ever since.

I am not having another cookie because I don’t want everyone to think I’m a fat pig.

When my coworker came by just before leaving and said “Here, have a cookie”, I said “No, thanks”.

According to you, that means it’s OK for my co-worker to harass me until I eat another cookie. Because really, I want it, but something is stopping me.

Listen carefully. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT HER REASON FOR SAYING NO WAS. AT THE TIME OF THAT DATE, SHE DID NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. WHEN SHE SAID “NO”, SHE MEANT “NO”. IF YOU HAD PRESSURED HER INTO HAVING SEX THAT NIGHT, YOU WOULD BE THAT GUY.

Women do not have to explain to men why they don’t want to have sex. They do not have to justify themselves to assholes who want to get laid.

And every time you repeat this “no doesn’t always mean no, bitches lie” bullshit, you are helping some asshole justify why it’s OK that he forced a girl to have sex when she didn’t want to.

Besides, if you’re willing to believe that she was lying when she told you no, why are you so sure she was telling the truth when she later said that she really wanted to but didn’t? Maybe she was just lying to you then, instead.

[treis]

@Dangerosa

No Treis, she didn’t want to have sex with you that night. For her own reasons - whether she told you the truth, she was afraid of what you would think of her, or because she had her own “I don’t want to think I’m a slut myself” hangup, or because she wanted you to show a level of intimacy and commitment that you’d stay around for a second date (second night), or for whatever other reason she chose not to tell you.

If she wanted to have sex with you - and you were willing - she would have had sex with you. Whatever her reason was, it overrode her lust.

I certainly buy that she lusted after you, that she had sexual attraction to you, that she like to jump your bones. But the fact that she didn’t means that some other factor than desire was at play. Otherwise, you would have gotten lucky.

Now, perhaps her hangups weren’t - in your mind - valid. Yet, they were for her, and she gets to say yes or no. Perhaps she is posting to a message board saying “you know, I regret not putting out that first night.” Although in all the stories about regretted sex and outright assault I’ve heard from girlfriends, I’ve never heard one say “I should have jumped him earlier.”

I…don’t understand. You do realize that people can want to do things but still choose not to do them, right? If you ask me if I want cake for dinner and I say no, you don’t have to hook me up to a lie detector to find out if I think cake would taste good or not. Because it doesn’t matter: there aren’t any reasons for not eating cake for dinner I can have that you get to disregard as invalid.

That women didn’t want to have sex with you. You know how you can tell? You asked her to have sex and she declined. You later found out that she was tempted to have sex with you, but her sexual identity at the time was more important to her than giving in to that temptation. You clearly seem to think that her not wanting to look like a slut was a stupid, dismissible reason, but it’s still her call to make.

How can anyone not understand this?

The hell? Have you not read any of my posts in any of these threads?

@treis

So the reality is that no does not always mean absolutely no. It can mean, “yes, but I want you to be the instigator”. It can mean, “maybe, I want to fool around a bit and see how it goes first”. It can mean, “I want to fool around a bit but not have sex”.

@treis

And to be clear here, the “no” I’m referring to is along the lines of “Want to come up for coffee but no sex”. If you are trying something, a “no” definitively means stop.

@treis

the no doesn’t mean no phenomenom occurs with 1/3 of women. Here, I’ll quote it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamia’s cite
37% of respondents agreed that they had, on at least one occasion, said “no” to sex with a man when they actually did want to have sex
So their existence is a fact, whether you like it or not.

@treis

No, clearly an invitation up to a girl’s apartment on a flimsy excuse + an explicit prohibition on sex = she wants to fool around a bit. Maybe she does want to have sex, but she doesn’t want it to be her idea.
I don’t know what you are missing here. You know that apartment = sexy time. Are you not aware that women often use “I don’t want to have sex” to establish a limit, and that this phrase doesn’t mean no hanky panky? Or that some women want to have sex but they don’t want it to be their idea?

We are like 22 pages into this shit. It’s a little late to play the semantic game.

[redtail23]

@Gagundathar

25%?

That is going to take a while to assimilate.

25% is the figure for rapes.

If you’ve been following along, it is damn near 100% for “minor” sexual assaults (groping, pinching, forced kisses, etc.).

[Troppus]

@treis

To reiterate one example, I fooled around with a women, asked if she wanted to have sex, she said no, and we stopped. I later slept with her and asked why we didn’t have sex the first night. She told me she wanted to, but didn’t want me to think she was a slut. So in this particular case, no did not mean no. It meant yes I want to, but something is stopping me.

What is your read on this, honestly. Because it sounds like you are totally bummed that you missed a chance to score because she was such a wishy-washy indecisive pussy.

[Dangerosa]

@treis

The hell? Have you not read any of my posts in any of these threads?

We are like 22 pages into this shit. It’s a little late to play the semantic game.

Yes, have you? If its late to play the semantic game, then what the hell game are you playing. She said no. She meant no. The fact that she had desire does not mean that she secretly meant yes and some sort of magic words on your part would have had her spreading her legs. It means only that she had desire for you.

[Jenaroph]

@treis

To reiterate one example, I fooled around with a women, asked if she wanted to have sex, she said no, and we stopped. I later slept with her and asked why we didn’t have sex the first night. She told me she wanted to, but didn’t want me to think she was a slut. So in this particular case, no did not mean no. It meant yes I want to, but something is stopping me.

So when you ask me if no always means no, I think back to that example and others and say no. What other conclusion can I come to? That women exists, she said those words to me, and I have no reason to believe she was lying. Am I supposed to simply discount these experiences because the SDMB wants no to always mean no.

You’re still missing the point. “No”* did* mean “no” for her* that night*. She had her reasons, whether you thought they were silly on hearing them or not. And congratulations, it worked out extremely well for both of you, didn’t it? She walked away from the encounter without feeling guilty about being a slut, and you got the chance to follow through another day, which may not have happened if you pushed her too hard, as MeanOldLady’s original example demonstrated. We’ll never know.

Nobody here’s trying to convince guys that “no” invariably means “Never.” “No” can mean “I’m not really over my last boyfriend.” “No” can mean “I’m not sure I want to lose my virginity just yet.” “No” can mean “I forgot I’m wearing my ugly granny panties tonight and I really don’t want you to see them.” “No” can mean “We just met and I’m not sure I trust you, give me more time.” And surprise surprise, respecting “no” can help you build that trust.

What did you lose out on by respecting her “no”? One night of nookie. What do women lose when men refuse to respect “no”? Safety, autonomy, freedom, for the whole of their lives.

[saje]

Listen dipshit, No means back the hell off and keep your hands and your suggestions to yourself.

Period.

Full stop.

NOTHING else.

[Troppus]

Dear treis, I have a bit of a dilemma. I’m very attracted to my husband’s friend, and I can tell he’s into me, too. I want to have sex with him and I’ve fantasized about it a couple times. Should I do it? I mean, I’m married and all, and I’m sure it would make him very, very happy, but I feel like I should refrain and keep my vows.

But since I’ve entertained the idea of sex with him, I should just go through with it, right? Since it’s clear that he wants me, too?

signed,

Married but waffling

[treis]

@MandaJo

Because the fact that she secretly wanted to have sex with you (taking her at her word) doesn’t mean you screwed up when you didn’t push it.

On the flip side, if I were a mind reader and said “Y’know I’m not going to think you’re a slut if we sleep together” that doesn’t make me an asshole.

@MandaJo

Let’s say there is a 50% chance that “no” means 'yes" and 50% chance it means “no”. Is passing up perfectly good sex really so tragic that it’s worth risking being a complete asshole for?

This is a different discussion though. There’s a difference between “No means no and it’s wrong to keep trying” and “If they say no, it’s best to back off because it will lead to better outcomes”. To answer your question though, no I don’t like 50/50 odds.

[treis]

@redtail23

According to you, that means it’s OK for my co-worker to harass me until I eat another cookie.

I’ve never said anything resembling that. Back your post up and find the closest thing I’ve said to that.