Ohh burn!
And I’m not being their “white knight”. They don’t need protection from some jackass on the internet that they will never know about. The fact that you casually insult people you don’t know says a lot about you. I’m just pointing that out.
The media and dating coaches, PUA websites and places like this that give socially irresponsible men a forum to compare notes on how to bully a reluctant partner. You’re onto something, and it’s a worthy discussion. I’d politely participate in a discussion of hints, flirting, body language, and how to respect the word no and accept delayed gratification. Signals is a Hollywood construct that needs to be debunked before some PUA zealot actually rapes someone.
Well, since we’re comparing bad habits, I’ve never had to coerce, force, or bully anyone into having sex. Don’t you wish you could say the same?
Signals are not a hollywood construct. Sorry, Troppus. I think you’ve taken your stance to an indefensible extreme.
What signals trump no?
Which, for clarity’s sake for the social derps of this thread, is not a signal. No is a word. A word with a very clear meaning. Hell, it’s usually one of the first words children learn! The word no and all it means trumps any perceived signal. ALWAYS. Otherwise you are toeing the line of RAPING SOMEONE.
It’s pretty clear that many of the guys blaming MOL for letting that guy into her apartment aren’t socially savvy enough to recognize and interpret signals. Frankly I’d be amazed if a couple haven’t already been kicked in the balls or accused of assault if they are telling the truth about their actions.
No one has said yet that a seduction fantasy is wrong. Persuading a chaste, reluctant girl to swoon into your bed is maybe the most common fantasy. But in reality, it’s crazy risky to ignore the word no and push onward without consent. Even if she’s allowed a guy to all the bases but wants to stop at penetration. Even if the guy is really sexually frustrated. It’s a terrible idea to advance the myth that women give signals that override a verbal no.
How is it insulting them to question if you may have unwittingly raped them?
Please realize I’m not accusing you of *intentionally *raping them. I honestly do believe you that you believe you haven’t. I’m suggesting that you just cannot *know *if you have or you haven’t - if you’ve had sex with them without a clear and enthusiastic “yes!” that wasn’t preceded by a “no”. Otherwise, there’s no way to know if that “yes” is from real consent or some other motivation.
This is a new way of thinking for a lot of people, and I’m just putting it out for your consideration. The new “thing” in rape prevention is promoting the idea of “enthusiastic consent” and trying to persuade women to get rid of their old passive patterns of “consent”. Really, we’re trying to work on it from the female end, but for it to work, we need the cooperation of our partners, too. If she’s going to start using her “yes”, you’ve got to stop not believing her “no”.
Ok, so I did call the game players “crazy”. I guess that is insulting. But since game players, real and fictional, are who created this mess, I think it’s appropriate.
Your original claim was that signals is a hollywood construct. Now you want to debate verbal and nonverbal communication. The goalposts have moved.
And no doesn’t have to always absolutely 100% mean no, especially if you open it up to nonsexual encounters. When you’re taking the road towards sex, it’s better to err on the side of caution and take no at face value but there are many examples where no doesn’t mean no to the point where it borders on cliche of person A asking person B:
- Are you mad? no.
- Do you want to talk about it? no.
- Do you care if I [insert action]? no.
and other open-ended questions where the responder decides to be passive-aggressive. These questions often all end in no, but does not always explicitly mean no.
Treating them all as no is win-win. You don’t get forced into the bullshit game, and the passive-aggressive dillweed learns their little games don’t work on you.
The fact of the matter is, you’re a POTENTIAL rapist. Every time you push a little to get past a clear “no”, you are potentially committing a sexual assualt. That’s all there is to it.
It is because of men like you that my daughter is going to be made to learn self-defense.
A guy who finds a way to ignore one explicit “No, it’s not happening” is just as easily going to find a way to justify ignoring a second and a third one.
Well, sure. But by the time she gets to the 701st no, she’s only 99% to blame instead of 100%.
“She invited me up. Coffee’s not coffee, coffee is sex.”
(I saw it on a sit-com so it’s real.)
I just want to say that this isn’t an entirely American society thing. My ex-husband is Japanese and when we were dating, he never took no as an answer. He’d try to initiate sex and I’d say no. He’d try again. And again. Up to four or five times I’d have to say no in a row until I finally would get pissed at him. And of course, he would be completely clueless as to why I was pissed. This happened a couple of times before I finally had enough of it and told him, that in America ‘no means no’ and that he was only making me angry by persisting. Well, apparently in Japan (according to him, so I took it with a grain of salt), a woman never says yes. She’ll say no and ‘protest’ till the man basically bugs her enough that she’ll say yes and be able to save face.
I just think that sort of thinking is disgusting. If you’ve essentially got to pester a woman to have sex with you until she gives in because of your sheer persistence, how does that make you any sort of a ‘man’? To me, it’s coerced sex and pretty close to rape.
I can’t imagine why that guy’s your ex husband.
Well, he did all that when they were dating and she still married him.
MEN: 1
WOMEN: 0
Well, no, it gets you what you want. Basically you’re saying you’re willing to take the risk of sexually harassing someone so that you can get laid. Gross.
Those of you wanting advice about relationships, this is damn good advice right here.
Yes, it is. Rather than wonder about her actual intent and attempting test her resolve, just GTFO and find a willing partner. Why even take a risk with someone like that?