Trump’s Election as a Warning to Liberals (& Conservatives)

To me, the most shocking thing about Trump’s election is not that he beat the predictions of virtually all the pollsters and poll aggregator/modelers (and me :)). It’s that he violated every bit of conventional wisdom in doing so. And it’s not like it’s untested conventional wisdom either. Trump did or said an incredible number of things, each one of which actually destroyed the election prospects and/or careers of actual politicians in recent memory is incredible. In recent years numerous politicians have actually blown elections/careers by making remarks that were perceived as racist/sexist, not to mention actual accusations of sexual hanky panky, or financial shenanigans and the like. And yet, the same electorate which severely punished other politicians did not punish Trump. To me, one of the main morals of the story is the fickleness of the public and the shallowness of their beliefs.

The truth is that you see it throughout history. You can see violent lurches from one political/ideological extreme to another, in the era of the French Revolution, the rise and fall of Nazism or Communism, and any number of others. Masses of people who ostensibly supported one ideology were suddenly enthusiastic supporters of a radically different one. People who take for granted that this will/could not happen in the US, or Western democracies generally, are ignoring this history, IMHO.

Human nature doesn’t change all that much in such a short time, if ever. And the point is that human nature is deeply rooted and enduring, while the various cultural mores and ideologies are shallow and transient. If you’ve seen in the past few hundred years – or even in our own times in other places – that human nature is capable of atrocious cruelty or any number of other depravities, it’s a mistake to assume that because right now and in this place people resolutely reject such notions means that this can’t change. It can, and extremely quickly.

And the salient point here is that you cannot advocate for things based on the notion that what you have already is “safe”.

I think this is relevant to both liberals and conservative. But the reason this is more relevant to liberals is that liberals are generally the ones trying to change things. All change involves risk. But the specific risk that’s most concerning is when it’s something that has a bad historical record and is based on the notion that things are different now. If things are different now, it’s very possibly only temporary.

As I see it now, the most obvious and dangerous example of this is in immigration and multi-culturalism. If you look at human history – or even at the vast majority of humans today – it’s hard to escape the suspicion that xenophobia is a part of human nature. Any time you have a mixture of different types of people, there’s a high likelihood that the different groups will end up hating each other or worse. If you promote this type of situation, you may well be creating an insoluble problem that will cause enormous trouble down the road. But ISTM that liberals push for these things because they believe people should get along so they will get along, and with progress over time it’s inevitable that they will get along. This seems overly optimistic and naïve to me.

There are other examples too, e.g. whether a welfare state promotes dependency and resentment, and others.

Bottom line is that I think liberals are pushing the envelope in the name of progress. And they think any steps they take are written in stone and represent the arc of history in action. And they may be right. But you never know. They may just be stretching that slingshot tighter and tighter, and who is to say what happens when it finally snaps back.

I don’t think this has to be overthought - the cards lined up just right for the con-artist.

It’s 1848 all over again. We wanted liberty and justice…and the reactionaries shut it all down.

(Also the FBI director, damn his eyes.)

Well, those at the top of the hierarchy are often aided in their quest to stay there (and quash all dissent and interference) by the human trait of readily-identifying with those at the top. We’re aspirational little primates, and prone to submission. So we often act against our own interests.

And, yes: one wonders how Comey will fare at the hands of the monster he had so large a role in creating.


Should Hillary ask her electors to vote: P: John McCain; VP: Hillary Clinton …?

One hypothesis is that many people are latent authoritarians but don’t express it unless activated by certain environmental pressures. If true, human nature could seemingly change within short periods.

This is an after the fact rationalization. Diversity isn’t chased for its own sake. The reasons they want diversity are for mercenary benefits, like poaching the best and the brightest from other countries, or arguments that diverse workplaces are more productive than monoculture workplaces (many studies purport to show this). Or that the West needs cheap labor, or has declining birth rates and needs to import immigrants to grow the population.

Certainly not every bit of conventional wisdom.

For example H.L. Mencken “Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public”

How did he violate this piece of conventional wisdom?

What’s the warning to conservatives?

And still he lost the popular vote. As I point many times it is good to keep in mind several of the points the OP makes, but it would be foolish to ignore that a lot of people is not really like what the OP is assuming that most Americans are.

To moderates, at least, the warning is that a great many people prefer extremism instead.

I haven’t read it, but Karl Marlantes in his book “What it’s like to go to war” talks about how easily you can convert a peaceful farmboy into a soldier with a few months of training. There is something latent in us that can be tapped into with the right environment. Scandanavian nations may be among the most peaceful now, but they aren’t really fundamentally different than their viking ancestors.

The problem with fascism vs communism is both are radical authoritarian movements. So someone who is susceptible to radicalism, utopian philosophy and authoritarianism will probably convert from one to the other easy. However a libertarian is not going to subscribe to either philosophy.

But yes, you have a point. Right wing authoritarianism in the form of groups like the KKK seems to rise when one of two things happen.

  1. “Others” start to invade America
  2. The “Others” start to stand up for themselves and/or demand equal treatment.

Blacks fighting for their rights in the 1860s, massive immigration waves & first wave feminism in the 1920s, the civil rights and 2nd wave feminism of the 60s and 70s.

I guess as liberals we got complacent that the ‘Others’ were numerous enough that they are the majority and would carry an election. Michael Moore on a WTF with marc Maron podcast many months ago talked about how only about 18%-ish of Americans are hetero white males over age 35. The other 82% or so of Americans are women, non-whites, LGBTs, etc. And that doesn’t even include religious minorities (christians vs all other faiths and non-faiths).

But that didn’t work. An incompetent person is now president, and the GOP controls about 66 of the 99 state legislatures.

Part of me wonders how well a candidate like Trump would have done if he had not been totally incompetent. If someone as deranged, unstable and unqualified as Trump can win the presidency, imagine what someone competent could have done.

Also another fear I have is people are going to learn from Trump that as long as you never accept responsibility or apologize, the public will let you get away with anything.

You make some good points but I can expound on them. Part of the flaw in liberal and progressive thinking is that “progress” is like a ratchet and only go in their preferred direction. That is a fallacy. There is no fundamental difference between the people that owned slaves 160 years ago, the Germans during WWII or even the Romans that loved blood-sports. Humans are not very nice by default especially when conditions for individuals become less than ideal.

There is no difference between us and our ancestors other than the quality of our iPhones. Once you start chipping away at general living standards or, even worse, start to see some intrusion from outside groups trying to flee even worse ones to suck up even more resources, you will see real brutality.

Even the benefits of diversity are, largely, after-the-fact rationalizations. We don’t have Mexican, or Asian, or African populations in this country because liberals were against mono-cultural workplaces. We have them because capitalists wanted cheap labor. I’m not a liberal because I want to live in a multicultural society, I’m a liberal because I already live in a multicultural society, and my only options are “Go along with it,” or “Do something really, really evil.”

That’s not to say that the benefits of a diverse society aren’t real. But we don’t have a multicultural society because someone looked at America and said, “Too boring!” We have a multicultural society because someone looked at America and said, “I know a way I can make a shit load of money off all that cotton.” Multiculturalism is a way to deal with the consequences of those decisions without covering yourself in blood up to the elbow.

This is a great OP. If I may add 2 cents, it’s that, IME, many liberals often confuse what “ought to be” with what is. They think that because things should be a certain way, that they therefore are already that way, or because they want people to think, act or behave a certain way, that therefore people actually are that way inside.

An example I would cite from the SDMB (I won’t mention poster names since this isn’t about calling out specific Dopers) - but in one SDMB thread, a poster (who has professed mostly left-wing views) claimed that Trump wouldn’t get 40% of the popular vote because many Trump voters would have a last-minute change of heart and “come to their senses” and vote for someone other than Trump instead. That was simply projection. The poster was essentially saying that because that was what *he *would do if he were in *their *shoes, that therefore that was what those Trump supporters would do, too.

I would phrase it “I don’t have to listen to you, because you’re sexist, racist, and wrong”. OK, let’s assume for the sake of the argument that I am sexist, racist, and wrong. I also control the White House, Senate, House, 31 governorships, and both legislative chambers in 30 of the 50 states.

Do you have to listen yet?

Regards,
Shodan

Does might make right?

TinyHands was merely extraordinarily lucky. For one thing, the Republican fields was a mile wide and an inch deep. None of the sane candidates (Rubio, Bush, Kasich, Graham) were very much liked. They split the sane vote among themselves. Then you have the never gonnabees like Jindal, Carson, Paul, Huckabee, Perry, and Santorum. You had those running on an ego trip: Carson, Fiorina, and Cruz. The sane vote was splintered and the whack-a-doodle vote coalesced around TinyHands, who also got unprecedented free media coverage. He spent virtually nothing on his campaign. Then he got to run against the only person who could have lost to him. Hillary may be smart, experienced, capable, and tough but for reasons that are unfair to her, people just don’t like her. Including the FBI director, who deliberately torpedoed her election bid with a week to go.

I believe this is not the end times. The Democrats will gain seats in 2018 and take the whole thing back in 2020, just in time to gerrymander with the new census.

No, but majority rules.

Maybe things will work out great for you in 2020. Do you think you have to listen in the meantime?

Regards,
Shodan

What’s the word for when a Republican proudly stands up for majority rule, after the results of the 2016 election?

Because, you know, the person who got the most votes didn’t win, because our system does not award the presidency to the person who gets the most votes.

Thank you for switching to our side.

Might doesn’t make right, but might makes rules.

House, probably, Senate no.