It seems that the only way you can support your argument is to totally change the context. If I tell you that X is going to happen to you if you do Y, you call me a liar(which the person in the OP basically did), then X happens to you because you would not listen to me, why exactly should I listen to you complain about it? It has zero to do with ego and that’s simply a red herring you threw in to try and support your position.
It also is not “bitch-slapping” a person while they are down. If I never warned you, something bad happened to you and when you complained, I started to give you grief for it, that would be a bitch slap. He’s going to “get shit for it” because he refused to listen and then wants to complain about it. If he didn’t listen to me, why should I listen to him? Should I go brew some Chamomile Tea, get comfy on the sofa and discuss with him at great length how even though he knew it was going to happen, some bitch took him to the cleaners? At best he is going to get, “You knew it was going to happen so drop it”.
Another thing, you’re going off on some tangent about “reasoned arguments”. This is not a “reasoned argument” situation, it’s a fact. The people were told by the guy what he wanted to do which is much different from them thinking it might be the case and expressing concern. She is basically calling them liars by saying she does not believe them. To me that is the cut off point and the person is on their own.
If this is strictly a gender-issue, fine, brew some Chamomile tea and tell everyone what a mean person I am. I’m sure they will just love to hear it in great detail.
The question was asked by the “I told you so” approach doesn’t work well when used for women. I gave my theory. You don’t like it, tough shit.
Maybe your approach works on your fellow men, but for women it’s like hitting an 8 year old to get it to stop crying - it only makes things worse.
So go on, continue to be all manly and verbally kick people when they’re down if it makes you feel studly - you’ll wonder to the end of your days why you continue to have women trouble.
You might have noticed that men and women are different. As a woman, I’d recommend you do not use this form of male behevior with women
And by that argument, you will never understand women.
Maybe he’s got a reason not to trust you. I mean, since when did you become all-knowing?
No, in your case I think it’s about ego-boosting. That’s why you’re trying so hard to justify it.
If the women around are constantly whining and bitching it’s time for you to stop and consider that you might be contributing to the situation. Contrary to rumor, women don’t whine without reason. The reason may not make sense to you in all your male glory and studliness, but there is one. You can either acknowledge that or go through life not giving a fuck what the women in your life are feeling or thinking. Your choice.
Sure. I’ll introduce her. You can join her stable of prior boyfriends who go their blowjobs and egos flatterd - and their bank accounts emptied, embarassing infections, pay outrageous alimony, and are now supporting children who they are not permitted to see. I’m not talking about a woman who’s hot and gives good head, I’m talking about a woman who uses men and then disposes of them like dirty kleenex. If you really want a ride like that - go ahead. I really do hope the sex is worth it.
I’ll bet you are.
I’m sure you’ll hate my “it depends”, but it does. If a guy and a gal meet in a bar and have a one night stand - well, as long no one was coerced, hey, I don’t give a damn. If she regrets it in the morning I’d tell her “Well, if it makes you feel bad don’t pick up guys in bars for one-nighters. Learn the lesson and get on with it.”. But if a man pursues a woman for an extended period of time, particularly if he implies an emotional attachment and a desire for something lengthy, THEN dumps her after the first night of sex - that’s being a cad, pure and simple. You don’t like the “kicked in the balls” analogy? How about an eye-gouge? Broken fingers? Kick to the solar plexus?
What I’m trying to convey here is that, while to YOU, the glorious male specimen, this is no big fucking deal it IS a BIG FUCKING DEAL to women. Chalk it up to a genuine male/female difference. I’m not saying you have to understand it in your gut - you never will anyway - I’m saying you need to recongize that the sort of situation in the OP is extremely painful to the woman involved.
You don’t want to deal with the aftermath? Fine. Tell her you think her gal friends will be better able to help her through it, then let her go off at “whine”, as you put it, with them so your precious ears don’t have to hear it.
Morgs is twenty, and about to be twenty-one (not in the sense that twenty is almost twenty-one - I mean in a couple of weeks).
Also, when he describes the girl as a minor, I’m pretty sure he knows that she’s past the age of consent - just describing her as a young girl. It’s easy to think of her as a minor if you know her, though. I agree with spooje that there is no magical age at which you become mature enough for this sort of thing, and that it varies between people. Although there are mature seventeen-year-olds around (I’ve heard), she’s definately not one of them.
Guess what, baby? If you get bamboozled into fucking someone because they said, in not so many words, “Hey let’s be boyfriend and girlfriend and we can go watch movies and sit in the park and feed ducks and go to the beach and also HAVE MORE SEX” and then never follow through - stiff fucking shit. What’re ya gonna do? Sue them? “WAH we had an implied verbal contract stipulating… err… that he would buy me shit and take me out, if I fucked him. So I fucked him. AND HE DIDN’T TAKE ME NOWHERES WHAT A CAD/BASTARD/SLIMY CREEP”. Life is hard, you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac. Here’s a tip for you - get used to being a hooker, 'cause that’s what you are.
Here’s another tip, absolutely free. Don’t count how many white doves you’re going to release into the air on your wedding day until you know for sure that you’ve got some chump to pay for them. And by for sure I don’t mean empty promises about “relationships”. What the fuck is that? “OH OH I gave up the pussy and then he ran fifty miles boo hoo hoo”. Wow, that’s an original sob story. Where do you want this killing done, out on Highway 61… or in your own living room as you slit your wrists listening to Nirvana records? Jesus fuck. A woman gets sad if she has sex and then doesn’t get… what? A guy to whine to for endless hours? A guy to amuse her for a minimum period of one (1) month and a maximum of FOREVER I WANT TO HAVE TEN THOUSAND OF HIS BABIES OMG LOL!!!1? A guy to… ah, who the fuck cares? Maybe your dopey friend will get a little bit wiser… you should thank this guy for making her a fighter.
Look, I’d like to apoligise for the lack of clarity with my terminology. I’m generalising and throwing around terms like ‘minor’ without first getting the meaning sorted out (ahem). I’ve done my utmost to be clear in this post, so enjoy!
It’s uber-reply time (I’m working on some theme music).
First, to Ellis Dee
Well it just so happens… look, you don’t honestly think I’d go ahead and accuse this guy of such things without checking out the facts first, do you? It’s just that my men’s intuition senses that you doubt me. Seriously I wouldn’t have doubted his character without good reason and given that all I’m accusing him of is being a cad, my accusation would remain true even IF his girlfriend had thrown him out or whatever else.
If I afford him my utmost in sympathy I suppose it could conceivably have been acceptable for him to have dumped his old girlfriend over the phone upon meeting a new prospect. Regardless of the reason, though, treating a person the way he treated her is something that I believe should not be done. That’s what it boils down to. I don’t believe he is a good, moral man… I don’t believe he will do anything in the long-run but harm my roomie. I’m not actively or directly preventing her from seeing him or having a relationship with him; I’m only warning her as I see fit.
Second,
to everybody who had wonderful loving relationships (no sarcasm) with large age differences between an adult and a child in their mid/late teens: Good for you! However, as I’ve said before, the issue is not the age difference per se (and thus I apologise for throwing around the term ‘minor’. It was pretty damn sensationalist of me, actually) but the fact that it wires the whole situation to seriously hurt the younger person. An older person with good intentions, restraint, and the proper respect for his or her far younger partner can have a very high-quality relationship indeed. On the other hand, an older person (particularly a man, due to physical strength) with ill intentions or a lack of understanding of certain biological or cognitive differences tied directly to sexual development etc can cause some serious damage. Just as parents who expect their 8 year old to behave like a rational adult fail miserably, so too I believe will an older person wind up hurting a younger partner when they expect more than he or she can deliver.
Thirdly, uh… no that’s it.
Bottom line is I care about this girl (and before anyone starts to fire up their shit-mobiles, theories of sexual catharsis can be bandied about to turn just about any situation against somebody, so don’t bother). I don’t want this guy to be inflicted upon her but I understand that to force her not to see him would be far worse for her self-esteem etc.
I’m going to warn her, and be there IF she winds up getting hurt, but there’s no way I’ll intervene unless it’s absolutely necessary - and the person who judges whether or not intervention is necessary will be HER.
I absolutely agree that “I told you so” is not the way to go when someone is suffering from a great blow or emotional trauma. Hey, these things happen. They’ll happen to me, and when they do, I hope others won’t rub my nose in it.
I will say, however, that if I warn someone of something, they blow me off and treat me as if I am full of shit, and then later all my warnings come true, I hope that they won’t be so deluded as to act as if no one warned them.
I don’t need them telling me, “Oh my gosh, you were so right, I’m so sorry I didn’t listen to you, you are all-knowing.” But my sympathy-meter goes down several notches if they act as if it’s all a great shock, and no one warned them, and oh dear, what a hapless victim they are, they had NO idea and could never have anticipated such a thing.
That would wear very thin. Not that I am saying that this relates to the OP, I’m just sayin’. I’ve seen this happen a time or two amongst the severely deluded.
I do not and would not, nor do I think it would be appropriate in general. I was clarifying the point that it is appropriate for males. Please note my original quote of you was thus: (emphasis added)
To continue…
Believe me, I know. But that is a different topic.
The women in my life are not constantly bitching and whining. I’d be surprised to meet a woman who would put up with [whatever caused her to whine] for an extended period of time. I believe I said “enough” whining, not “constant” whining. (Anything more than none is plenty.)
Either way.
I agree with your point; I think it’s way uncool to do that to a woman. Your analogy comparing the false seduction to a kick in the groin is childish, naive, and simplistic. It implies that men do not have emotions, or are unable to form emotional committments, and therefore the only way a man could possibly experience the agony of a broken heart is to gouge his eyes. Really, you should give us more credit than that. I would say there are plenty of more applicable analogies. Your golddigger example is much better.
I do. I’m the one who is still holding out hope that the guy in question is actually a standup kind of guy, and that he hasn’t yet learned appropriate posturing with other males, thus giving the OP the wrong impression. I’m rooting for the guy to spark up another one of his four year relationships.
Again, I’m talking about when male friends whine about something we told them was going to happen. Women need to process emotions verbally, and that’s fine; I have no problem with that. But my precious ears don’t need to be chewed off by a whiny male who should have known better.
Given the phrasing of those two paragraphs, you seem to be implying that you did not, in reality, “check out the facts first.” Have you spoken to his ex? How many women has he actually seduced and dumped? From what you’ve told us, that number might be zero. OTOH, also from what you’ve told us, we know for a fact he has had at least one longterm relationship. I speak to pattern.
I’m just trying to point out that just because your spider sense is tingling does not automatically mean he is a bad guy. Granted, it doesn’t look good. But hey, most guys are different around women they pursue/girlfriends than they are around other guys.
I wouldn’t (as I’m sure you aren’t planning to anyway) hammer the point home too hard with your roomie’s cousin, nor should you hammer it too hard with your roomie. My experience is that women tend to disregard overprotective men, men’s intuition notwithstanding.
What I would recommend is that you explain to the cad in question that if he breaks the girl’s heart, you and he will have a problem. Best if delivered in a menacing tone.
Damn, j_kat, perhaps you need to start a pit thread about your ex. Egad.
I disagree with her assertion that a broken heart for a woman is akin to kicking a man in the groin.
My assertion is that a broken heart for a woman is akin to a broken heart for a man. For instance, when a man loves a woman who cleans out his bank account and dumps him. That to me seems a much more fitting comparison.
One can only hope that my words will eventually be taken in context. The Long Road seems a fairly reasonable guy to me, and I’m sure both he and I would appreciate not being lumped in with j_kat_251.
And yosemitebabe, I agree wholeheartedly, though I give decidedly more leeway to girls than I do guys. I’m such a dope that I’ll more often than not enable the poor girl by listening to all her complaints dutifully, despite whatever prior warnings I offered. I’m a schmoe like that. That could be a large part of the reason I’ll tell a whining male friend to suck it up before he finishes his first sentence.
You know, it is also probably a major contributing factor to the remarkably high percentage of women with whom I have fallen into the “friend zone”. It’s not nice guys that finish last; it’s spineless, enabling pushovers…whole board cries in unison: “Stop your whining and suck it up!”
OK, Ellis Dee, you didn’t like my kick-in-the-groin analogy, I can live with that. Maybe it wasn’t the best. But just as a woman can’t really know what a kick in the groin feels like to a man (although it looks pretty fucking painful) a man can’t ever feel from the inside what this sort of bait-and-switch “relationship” feels like to a woman.
Here’s a tip for men who want to hear less whining from the womanfolk: First, do NOT ever say “Quit your whining.” Those men with experience in these matters will know that the very first response will be “But I’m NOT whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiniiiiiiiiiiiiig…!” which is excatly what you don’t want to have happen. Say this (or something like it): “Honey, I know you’re really upset. Take a deep breath and tell me about it as calmly as you can.” The calmer she is, the less she whines. If she won’t stop, say “Honey, I think you need to spend some quality time with your gal friends. Why don’t you call up [name(s)] and have a girl-to-girl talk with her?” That way, the whining goes on where you don’t have to hear it.
If you warned her and she starts up with “no one warned me” stop her right there and tell her up front she was warned but she didn’t listen. Women have a bad habit of lying to themselves (maybe men do, too) and they HAVE to learn to stop that.
Ellis Dee, I know men have feelings. When I was going on about my theory of human reproductive biology I was not only objectifying the men but the women as well - basically saying the only want to step up a home and make babies. It wasn’t meant to describe all of human nature, and I even said that going in.
I know there are times men get very frustrated because women react so differently to the same stimuli. Believe me, the feeling is mutual. But I do believe men are human beings with human feelings, and when they’re hurt emotionally they feel the pain every bit as much as any woman - it’s just that men express it differently (and even the most stoical man DOES express it one way or another).
Is a broken heart for a man as painful as a broken heart for a woman? Yes. But the “string her along until you get sex and then dump her” scenario also involves a level of betrayal that goes beyond merely breaking up after the end of a love affair. It’s more than “I met someone else I love more so we’re no longer an item.” I’m not sure what the equivalent betrayal would be for a man. Finding out your wife has been cheating with your best friend for the past 10 years? Finding out the children you thought were yours were fathered by another man? Well, no, because of the time aspect of those. Like I said, I don’t have a good equivalent. Maybe you can suggest one.
I already did. Your golddigger analogy. If a woman seduces a man (who falls in love with her) under false pretenses to get his money, it is just as painful as when a man seduces a woman (who falls in love with him) under false pretenses to get her honey.
In both situations, the victims gave of themselves, committed emotionally, and were blindsided by an unscrupulous seducer.
Is this really a difficult concept? Dating a guy for a month and finally sleeping with him to have him never call again is somehow in the same ballpark as finding out your kids aren’t really yours?!
My god, may I never discover what color the sky is in your world.
Argh! I just spent half an hour writing up a massive post and lost the damn thing because my login cookie timed out or god knows what…
Anyway… just wanna say AGAIN…
to Ellis Dee – damn! what I’d wanted to convey was that I HAD checked up on him. Not a completely thorough investigation but enough to establish enough about him that conclusively show he’s a dangerous guy. To me dumping a girl over the phone is like hitting your wife. Completely inexcusable. You treat someone like that, expect others in your life to take the ‘better safe than sorry’ approach. Anything other than a smitten 17 year old and he’d have a handprint on his cheek.
After that, my previous (sadly, lost) post crapped on a lot about various horrible things about this guy). Basically, he’s a dishonourable, violent, Confucian. That is to say he treats people in general but women especially with disrespect (past examples are his girlfriend, my girlfriend, me (he flipped me off when I suggested politiely that maybe he shouldn’t have his arm around her. I took her to task on this point a little, too, but she’s far smaller than him and might not have been confident of her ability to throw him off).
Have it on good authority from the principal of his school (the princ is close to my gf, who interpreted for us) that he bullied younger students and was involved in numerous fistfights.
Also, he holds up a Confucian ideal of a relationship. The man cares for the woman and in return expects complete obedience. Her last boyfriend was like this and they lasted two weeks. Difference is the last boyfriend didn’t hit people when he disagreed with them. It’s not certain he’ll extend his violent tendencies towards women in general, but better to wait and see, methinks.
Anyway that was about the size of it. Lata all.
Oh and btw, Ellis Dee: good suggestion about the ‘stern warning’.
He’s right at home in Guangzhou at the moment so I’ll have to wait to issue it (he’s coming to Australia to study next year). E-mail isn’t exactly a fine medium to be threatening.
Picking nits at this point. I read too much into what you were saying, and you read too much into mine.
Your original golddigger scenario seemed to imply the guy taken advantage of was not in love. Something about infection as being the bad repercussion, or that the golddigger was an extra-marital fling. In all honesty, if I got a bunch of blowjobs and lost a bunch of money, but was not emotionally invested in the woman, then hell yeah, that’s a pretty fun lesson.
I think people in general are too eager to carry things to extremes. There are two statements in this thread I find very disconcerting:
That’s way over the top, and I don’t think any reasonable person would agree with it. (I note that you specifically pointed out it was probably a bad analogy. I’m confirming your suspicion; it is horribly wrong.)
I think the real point of what I’m attempting to get across is that you don’t have to use an analogy at all; I think the heartache you assume is female-only is, in reality, not limited to one gender. We are all, after all, human. (Although the cad from the OP is rapidly losing my faith.)
That’s even more over the top than Broomstick’s statement, on several levels. She at least qualified hers. I get that you are trying to say it is completely inexcusable, but your comparison is dangerously inappropriate. Hitting your wife is a jailable offense, and with good reason. How would you feel about a woman who dumps a man over the phone? She’s just as bad as a wife beater?
Just because two things are both completely inexcusable in no way makes them equivalent. Cutting in line is completely inexcusable. So is planting a car bomb. But if I equated the two in order to illustrate a point, I would expect to get called on it.
That aside, the new information you have supplied leaves me distressed. Your OP makes much more sense to me now, and I agree you should keep your eyes and ears open. Again, don’t hammer the point home with the 17 year old. You’ll just drive a wedge between you. I think the stern warning should come asap when he gets back to your area.
Best of luck, and I’ll keep my fingers crossed for your roommie’s cousin. Let’s hope she gets out of it with nothing worse than a broken heart; a broken orbital bone is no picnic.
E. Dee, you’re right about my equating battery with phone-dumping. They most certainly are not on the same level. The only thing I was trying to parallel was that the two are inexcusable, but I have to admit it was a dangerous example to use and it looks like I’ve been picked up. I wouldn’t equate the two on any level other than being unforgivable.
Aside from that, all I can really do is thank you for accepting the new information so readily. Given how late in the argument I introduced it (I dunno if I mentioned it but I was waiting on the a go-ahead to talk more seriously about the problem here).
Well, that’s it… I don’t really have any new information to supply, so if anybody wants to turn this thread into an argument about what’s worse out of gold-digging and honey-digging that’s fine by me.
Come to think of it, I think you did mention that you had facts you weren’t yet ready to give, but to take your word for it. Apparently it is tough (for me) to take somebody’s word sight unseen, I guess.
Btw, a belated welcome to the boards.
At the very least, this discussion has given me new insight into the underhandedness of the bait and switch, as I would never have drawn the parallel between that and golddigging.
But the more I consider it, the more apt it seems. Thanks for the new insight, Broomstick.