"USA! USA! USA!" Shut UP!

[Otto]

The reason I didn’t return to this thread before now is not so dramatic as you all seem to think. I just haven’t had time. If you’ll notice, there are no posts from me anywhere for the last couple of days.

Probably no point in responding to any of this. It’s doubtful that responding will change anyone’s mind. If you all want to think I’m an asshole, so be it. I believe what I said and I still believe it.

There are some things that I think are just wrong. Treating the carnage in NYC like a circus, whether it’s the media doing it or armchair pundits or rescue workers or politicians trying to score political points, is one of them.

The chant at the site was not the first time it had been heard in relation to this disaster. It will undoubtedly not be the last.

The chant did not come while the president or anyone else was paying tribute to anyone. The chant came after the president said something to the effect of “the people who did this will hear from all of us soon.” In other words, we’ll be dropping bombs on their civilians any day now.

That the response to the impending deaths of countless people whose only crime was to be born in the wrong country was met with the same response as a 90 yard punt return or an American victory in the long jump sickened me. My hope was that others were also sickened by it and that by posting I would not only express my own distress but let others know that their voice, a voice not reflected at all in any of the mainstream coverage I’ve seen of this tragedy, a voice that says that there may be another rational response besides bombing until the rubble bounces, was not alone.

And I realize that the people working at Ground Zero couldn’t care less what I think, but just to clarify, I have nothing but admiration for them and the work they have done and continue to do through the losses they have suffered. But my admiration for their heroism does not mean that my feelings concerning this one act of theirs, and the identical act performed by people nowhere near the site, was wrong.

[AM_PM]

I kind of felt strange when the did the USA-USA chant as well.

What’s next, the Wave?

And the flash a flame thing also seemed like what you would do at a rock concert.

[JSexton]

Originally posted by Otto *
**
The chant did not come while the president or anyone else was paying tribute to anyone. The chant came after the president said something to the effect of “the people who did this will hear from all of us soon.” In other words, we’ll be dropping bombs on their civilians any day now.*

See, that’s where I think you are mistaken. Bombs? Maybe. The primary goal should be extraction of the guilty parties, which is a paraphrase of what the President said. If bombings or other miltary actions are necessary to bring that extraction about, then so be it.

**That the response to the impending deaths of countless people whose only crime was to be born in the wrong country was met with the same response as a 90 yard punt return or an American victory in the long jump sickened me. **

The words were the same. The meaning, and emotions behind them, were very, very different.

My hope was that others were also sickened by it and that by posting I would not only express my own distress but let others know that their voice, a voice not reflected at all in any of the mainstream coverage I’ve seen of this tragedy, a voice that says that there may be another rational response besides bombing until the rubble bounces, was not alone.

You’re certainly not alone in wanting a solution other than mass bombing. I disagree with your perception that that outlook is suppressed in the media. Cooler heads are everywhere, they’re just not as loud as some. However, as many other people have said, chanting “USA!” is not the same as chanting “Bomb the ragheads!”

**And I realize that the people working at Ground Zero couldn’t care less what I think, but just to clarify, I have nothing but admiration for them and the work they have done and continue to do through the losses they have suffered. But my admiration for their heroism does not mean that my feelings concerning this one act of theirs, and the identical act performed by people nowhere near the site, was wrong. **

I suppose not. It is, after all, an opinion. My opinion is that your are judging one act far out of proportion the tragedy that they are facing firsthand, and that you have only experienced secondhand. Walk a mile in their shoes, so to speak, and see if your opinion holds.

[Crafter_Man]

If you’ve read any of my other stuff, you’ll know it’s a rare moment when I can see rationality on both sides of an issue.

To an intellectual, the site of seeing “the masses” doing their chant via the TV tube may appear to be disrespectful at best. But you weren’t there (at least I would assume so), and thus you are incapable of experiencing the emotions they were having. In other words, I can understand how a group of people would partake in the “USA!” chant while standing atop the smothering ruins. I mean, what else are they going to say? So go easy on them.

Now having said that, we should all realize that this is not a sporting match. As an example… While the events were unfolding on Sept. 11, there were about 15 people surrounding our little TV located here in our lab. I was pretty much speechless the entire time, and even found myself shaking after seeing the WTC come down. But I sensed that many others were actually excited. “Wow, this is really exciting” was the vibe I was getting. Suffice to say, this absolutely disgusted me. Though I believe we must go to war, I’ll be the first to admit that there is very little glory in it. War is horrible.

[bernse]

Wow.

I don’t recall ever seeing a pit thread posts so universally despise the OP.

[armedmonkey]

Otto, you are beneath my contempt, but I will hold off the flaming to appeal to your intellectual side for a minute. Whether men are firefighters, rescue workers, or soldiers, morale is important. In order to deal with the extreme carnage, the men must in some way keep their spirits up. Chants like U-S-A are simple, everyone knows them, and express just the right amount of Us vs. Them to keep the adrenalin flowing. When George Washington wanted to keep his men from deserting at Valley Forge, you can be damn sure he didn’t deliver a powerpoint presentation on the international political ramifications of the colonial revolt or a treatise on the horrors of war in today’s society. He promised them British blood.

Alright, enough civility.

Otto, I usually never bother to pile on, but you fucking sicken me. How fucking cold hearted and aloof do you have to be to see those tired men and begrudge them the right to rally around the concept of national pride. Chanting U-S-A is bad!? What? Did you expect them to chant latin slogans? How about requiem dirges? Would that have allayed your detached itellectual disdain? Even if it isn’t your thing, why even care? You cared enough to post the OP. Why?

*Originally posted by Otto *
The chant did not come while the president or anyone else was paying tribute to anyone. The chant came after the president said something to the effect of “the people who did this will hear from all of us soon.” In other words, we’ll be dropping bombs on their civilians any day now.

Um, no. When was the last time we bombed civilians? Who is suggesting that we start now? Why is it wrong to start a national chant at the start of what may be a war? You strike me as such a feeble-mended pussy wimp that ,if you were on Iwo Jima you’d request that we not raise the flag in order to protect native sensibilities. What the Hell is wrong with rallying the troops?

*Originally posted by Otto *
That the response to the impending deaths of countless people whose only crime was to be born in the wrong country was met with the same response as a 90 yard punt return or an American victory in the long jump sickened me.

OMIGOD, I just realized something. They played the national anthem in New York too. Oh no! They have to stop playing it to honor the dead because it is meant to start baseball games and honor gold medals at sporting events. I am blinded by the brilliance of your logic. Don’t just rely on your overeducation, but think occasionally will ya? If an idle mind is the devil’s playground, you must have a whole infernal Six Flags in your cranium.

Otto, you are a moronic fuckwit too concerned with maintaining your personal illusion of intellectual superiority to realize you lack both spine and heart, two things the firefighters have in spades.

[yosemite]

*Originally posted by Otto *

There are some things that I think are just wrong. Treating the carnage in NYC like a circus, whether it’s the media doing it or armchair pundits or rescue workers or politicians trying to score political points, is one of them.

And what are you? I think you are an “armchair pundit” - sitting here, passing judgment on the actions of those who are actually WORKING, on Ground Zero. Here you are, nit-picking some anal-rententive detail, assigning motives behind a simple, spontanious chant that came from exhausted, heartbroken men.

The chant at the site was not the first time it had been heard in relation to this disaster. It will undoubtedly not be the last.

So what? Plug your ears, you delicate creature, you.

The chant did not come while the president or anyone else was paying tribute to anyone. The chant came after the president said something to the effect of “the people who did this will hear from all of us soon.” In other words, we’ll be dropping bombs on their civilians any day now.

Oh, I see. You are a mind-reader now. You can 100% tell for sure that the words “The people who did this will hear from al of us soon” really are the secret code words for “we’re going to bomb a bunch of innocent civilians to kingdom come”? Gee - what psychic powers you have. You do realize that nothing has actually been done yet, right? So you don’t know what is planned.

Could it be that Bush was making a basic, general statement about how we will try to stop this terrible evil from happening again? You do realize that most people in America (and around the world) want to have something done to stop this kind of terror, don’t you? So why is some generic comment about how we will respond to these terrorist acts such an offensive thing?

That the response to the impending deaths of countless people whose only crime was to be born in the wrong country was met with the same response as a 90 yard punt return or an American victory in the long jump sickened me.

It appears that only you took it that way. What an absurd, melodramatic spin you have put on it all. My advice to you is to take a Tums, and get over yourself.

[Fletch]

Otto, I don’t know you and I don’t think I want to know you. Please read the agreement for the boards again, and focus on the part about being a “jerk”.

[_Uigi]

Foxtrot Oscar, you unmitigated piece of crap.

I hope you’re making reservations on whatever camel dung airline can provide a first class seat to Kabul.

[Otto]

When was the last time we bombed civilians?

Civilians are bombed every time that bombs are used. When was the last time the United States bombed civilians? The last time the United States bombed anyone.

Who is suggesting that we start now?

See above, and see the incredible number of posts all over these boards and the stories all over the media of people calling for the immediate bombing of Afganistan.

[Otto]

And what are you? I think you are an “armchair pundit” - sitting here, passing judgment on the actions of those who are actually WORKING, on Ground Zero.

I’m not treating the carnage in NYC as a circus.

Oh, I see. You are a mind-reader now. You can 100% tell for sure that the words “The people who did this will hear from al of us soon” really are the secret code words for “we’re going to bomb a bunch of innocent civilians to kingdom come”? Gee - what psychic powers you have. You do realize that nothing has actually been done yet, right? So you don’t know what is planned.

Does anyone seriously doubt that the United States is going to engage in a military response to these acts? Does anyone seriously doubt that bombing will be a part of that response? Does anyone seriously doubt that innocent people will be killed? How exactly is someone’s being happy at the thought of innocent Afgani dead any different than the idea of someone’s being happy at the idea of innocent American dead?

Could it be that Bush was making a basic, general statement about how we will try to stop this terrible evil from happening again?

No. I don’t think it could.

You do realize that most people in America (and around the world) want to have something done to stop this kind of terror, don’t you? So why is some generic comment about how we will respond to these terrorist acts such an offensive thing?

Forgive me for being disturbed at the notion of innocents being killed in my name by my country.

quote:

That the response to the impending deaths of countless people whose only crime was to be born in the wrong country was met with the same response as a 90 yard punt return or an American victory in the long jump sickened me.

It appears that only you took it that way.

Apparently not, based on the comments of others on this thread and others I’ve spoken with IRL.

[Weirddave]

I’m not treating the carnage in NYC as a circus.

Yes, you are. It’s your own private “here is something I can feel superior to in an intelectual way, thus distanceing myself from the horror and proving how wonderful I actually am” three ring extraveganza.

Does anyone seriously doubt that innocent people will be killed? How exactly is someone’s being happy at the thought of innocent Afgani dead any different than the idea of someone’s being happy at the idea of innocent American dead?

And what does this have to do with people celebrating the fact that such a dasterdly act would not go unpunished? Also, it took place 2 days after the attack. By that point it was obvious that our reaction was going to be targeted at the guilty parties. Will some innocents die? Undoubtedly. But our response will not be targeted at innocent people, this one was. The two are in no way the same.

No. I don’t think it could.

So now you’re a mind reader, oh Karnac The great?

Forgive me for being disturbed at the notion of innocents being killed in my name by my country.

Any innocents that die will die in the name of justice. It may be the U.S.A. that causes it, but it won’t be done primarialy to kill innocents for “revenge”. Why is such an obvious difference so hard for you to grasp?

[kinoons]

*Originally posted by Otto *
**

When was the last time we bombed civilians?

Civilians are bombed every time that bombs are used. When was the last time the United States bombed civilians? The last time the United States bombed anyone.

Who is suggesting that we start now?

See above, and see the incredible number of posts all over these boards and the stories all over the media of people calling for the immediate bombing of Afganistan. **

I believe no more than two weeks ago we attacked anti-aircraft gun battery and missile sites in Southern Iraq. Barring any non-combatints hanging around for a guided tour of their military’s finest radar site, no civilians were injured in that strike.

[Karellen]

I’ve always hated that “USA!” chant too, just because it has so many negative connotations for me. I think for many of us maybe it DID represent a sort of beer-swilling, hyper-masculine numb-skullery typical of sporting events and ROTC keg parties.

When I first heard it used at Ground Zero, my reaction was imilar to Otto’s: Please, not now, not that chant. A nice verse of “We Shall Overcome” would have been better…

…for me. Better for me, the armchair sympathizer, the television watcher, the expatriate citizen who lives an ocean away. But “better for me” isn’t the point. This isn’t a film review, Otto. At that moment, at that place, for those people, that chant that has annoyed you and me for so long, well, I guess it felt right. And that’s good enough.

As for the 300 men in Bridgeport, Illinois, who marched on a mosque with apparent hostile/ignorant intent, and who were turned back by police from an apparent mob hate crime against other innocent Americans? They were chanting “USA! USA!” as well, apparently believing that Muslims in Illinois were non-Americans because of their weird religion and haircuts. To those men, I’ll echo your OP:

Shut up. You’re embarassing us all.

So it’s really just a matter of context. Firefighters? Fine. Racist mob? Not fine. Future sprorting events? Hmmm…

[Otto]

Any innocents that die will die in the name of justice.

Think about what you just said.

It is NEVER just for an innocent person to die in the name of justice. The American justice system is founded on the principle that it is better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to be wrongly punished.

A nation that would kill the innocent to punish the guilty is not a just nation.

[techchick68]

*Originally posted by Otto *
**Does no one understand how obnoxious screaming “USA! USA! USA!” at the site of the WTC is? It’s bad enough that Americans act like complete boobs at the Olympics and other international sporting events with this noise, but to reduce this tragedy and the inevitable long and bloody war to follow to the same level with that damn chant? Tens of thousands have died. Tens of thousands more are going to die. This is not a goddamn game. This is potentially a world war. Just knock it the fuck off! **

So, your OP goes from bitching about people chanting USA, USA to:

It is NEVER just for an innocent person to die in the name of justice. The American justice system is founded on the principle that it is better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to be wrongly punished.

A nation that would kill the innocent to punish the guilty is not a just nation.

Sorry, you lost me there, what the hell does that have to do with chanting to rally the people or in your case seeing it as no more than an athletic event?

EGADS, stick to the topic everyone, this is not about the innocent losing their lives to terrorism in the truest sense, this is about a group of humans trying to get some sense of patriotism back into the recovery efforts of pulling out body parts, concrete, steel, desks, electronic equipment, etc…but about the damn people that have died, YES, I find it hard to see that any survived but someone has to pick up the pieces and those “rescue” people (sorry I see them as recovery people now) are working their damn asses off to ensure that families can say good bye. The rally cry of USA USA, USA is a way to get ordinary workers to feel charged, to feel rejuvinated to understand that this is for our country, not for some sporting event. I can’t believe you can’t see that.

The pres coming to the site gave them a renewed sense of what they are doing is right. Granted what speared that was words that aren’t favorable in the world today, basically war, but damnit, they HAVE to believe in their hearts that what they are doing is in the best interest of the nation.

So a chant happened, get over it, we have much more harsh things to consider at this time.

Otto, just get over it, Geezus, this is is lame. Don’t twist your OP…you said a pretty lame thing and I invite, again, to the Firefighter’s Memorial here in C Springs next September. Where you can see all 300+ firefighters names on that wall. Where you can feel the sense of comradery that these men and women feel when they lose a member of their brotherhood (sorry ladies, haven’t figured out the PC term for it and I don’t care.)

Despite the fact that this attack will eventually bring us to a weird war, the chant is minor and needs to be viewed as a means to rally those that are in recovery or rescue…however you want to see that.

< techie is sad that someone can’t see that, it makes her heart heavy >

[spark_applied_to_powder]

Well, now that the queen of perpetual rants has had her say, may I agree with the OP? It was just sad to see people reacting like it was a football game. “We’re No 1!”? That’s just sick.

[The_Raven_1]

*Originally posted by spark applied to powder *
**Well, now that the queen of perpetual rants has had her say, may I agree with the OP? It was just sad to see people reacting like it was a football game. “We’re No 1!”? That’s just sick. **

Wow, “That’s just sick”. How’s that for bringing something to the table, you filthy fucking troll!

And now that you’ve been acknowledged as the troll you are, I humbly request that others withhold their replies to this scumsucker, thus cutting off the filthy fucking troll’s air supply.

Let’s call it quits on this thread.
-Rav

[Jester]

*Originally posted by spark applied to powder *
**Well, now that the queen of perpetual rants has had her say, may I agree with the OP? It was just sad to see people reacting like it was a football game. “We’re No 1!”? That’s just sick. **

Uh…huh. So, immediately, because the chant is used at sporting events, that is the absolute only context that it could be taken in.
Does that mean that the National Anthem is out, too, since it opens sporting events? Because obviously that’s the only way it can be used.
Or how about “Back in Black” by AC/DC? They play that whenever Jason Kendall comes up to bat for the Pirates, so of course that’s the only context that it can ever be used in. I know that when I’m driving around in my car and it comes on the radio, I immediately begin looking around to see if Kendall is crossing the street or walking next to me. You’d be surprised how many accidents I’ve been in, just looking for Jason Kendall.

Look. The USA chant is used at sporting events. It’s a fact of life. That doesn’t change the fact that, under a large number of circumstances such as the one discussed in the OP, it can mean something more. It can simply be a patriotic call into the darkness, a rallying cry to get a few exhausted rescue workers back on their feet. You’re damn right it’s a “we’re number one!” call, because at that moment, that’s just the type of inspiration that those men needed. So get over it.

[Weirddave]

*Originally posted by Otto *
**

Any innocents that die will die in the name of justice.

Think about what you just said.

It is NEVER just for an innocent person to die in the name of justice. The American justice system is founded on the principle that it is better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to be wrongly punished.

A nation that would kill the innocent to punish the guilty is not a just nation. **

I can’t figure out if you’re stupid or just fixated. Read anything I’ve written since the attack, anything, and you’ll see that my constant refrain is that the U.S. should do everything in it’s power to ensure that retaliation is aimed at the guilty, and not thrown around indescriminately. I also realize that it is inevitable that some innocents will probobly get hurt. It is unfortunate. It is wrong. It is also inevitable. Sitting on your hands and bemoaning that fact is pointless. If you have enough brain wattage, come over to GD and debate the issue in my thread over there. By your logic, anyone could invade the U.S. anytime they please simply by holding hostages within the ranks of their army. “Oooops, can’t resist, innocent people might get hurt”. Innocent people DO get hurt in war. 5000 plus lost their lives a week ago. That is a fact, and bemoaning that it is true acomplishes nothing. It’s a philosophical circle jerk of the most pointless kind.

Also, what does this have to do with your OP, anyway?