You obviously don’t get -why- they are chanting USA. We were just attacked in a way that was meant to terrorize and divide us as a nation.
Instead of disbursing and running for the hills, EVERYONE-- except you, obviously, is coming together for the first time in YEARS.
A vast majority of us have been really disassociated with our country. Cracking jokes at its expense, sneering at the flag, saying how horrible things are here, not standing for the national anthem and just in general not really taking stock of what we really have.
We’ve taken everything for granted and last Tuesday that ALL CHANGED for alot of AMERICANS and for the world.
People are out there at the rubble of the WTC chanting USA because for some, that’s -all- they can do aside from look on helplessly as the rubble smolders and hope of finding survivors dwindles to nothing.
Its not a game. Its a people cheering each other on, to motivate them, give them a feeling that they are fighting for something in a time when its almost easier to just sit down on a curb and cry until you can’t breathe.
I’m sorry you are so terribly jaded that you can’t see that we need each other right now. Its sad to see that in this tragedy you can’t seem to wake up and realize that everyone’s way of life is changing, even yours, and that if we don’t rally around together we might as well raise the white flag, surrender and let whoever the hell did this waltz in and declare this country thiers.
And all you can do is bitch like a baby about some people chanting USA. If its that much of a problem for you, go live in the woods. Don’t watch TV, don’t read the papers and stay off the damn internet and live under your rock where no one will offend you by saying anything about the USA.
Otto
I am coming late to this party, so let me see if I understand your position(s).
[ul][li]THe USA chant offends you at sporting events because it is nationalistic/jingoistic[/li][li]The USA chant offends you in response to the WTC disaster because it has been used at sporting events[/ul][/li]So, is there any context under which a chant of USA would not offend you?
[ul]
[li]Any nation that kills innocents is not a just nation.[/li][li]Armed conflict invariably kills innocents.[/ul][/li]So are you a total pacifist? Do you likewise desire the removal of weapons from the police force, customs patrol, secret service, etc.?
Everyone except those with Arabic names and Mideast clothing. They’re all hiding from the redneck fuckwits who think they’re doing the world a favor by killing everybody with a tan.
Just picking a nit. Don’t confuse wall-to-wall flag-waving TV coverage with national unity.
Likewise, don’t confuse the ignorant actions of a few fucknuts with national disunity. For that matter, don’t delude yourself that the south maintains a monopoly on racist morons.
I am saddened that there have been any occassions of violence against Arabs or Muslims in America, but I am heartened that there have been relatively few, and that the voices of reason and opposition to blind hatred have been clear.
[nitpick]Actually, this was Bridgeview Illinois, and they were not men, they were mostly High School age kids. There are a lot of race problems at the local High School, and a big part of it is the white kids vs. arab kids. It started about two blocks from my house and escallated to a march on the mosque (about 3 miles away) after the police broke up the gathering at the high school where it started. Bridgeport (mixed race neighborhood near downtown Chicago) has it’s own problems with race relations as well (the Leonard Clark case) but is a different demographic then Bridgeview (predominatly white suburb)[/nitpick]
As for Otto… you aren’t bringing the potato salad to the mensa picnic, are you? It’s obvious to me, you fuck, that you have deviated from the OP because you can’t win your position? And why can’t you win? Because you are so obviously WRONG! Go to the dictionary, look up the word “intent” and the word “context”. Then think, if it’s possible you sanctamonius cretin, about one situation versus the other. As told to you time and time again, it is different! If I put the surgically removed asshole of a donkey in a box, wrap it up, put a pretty bow on it and give it to you as a present with a card saying “This reminds me of you”, is it a good thing? After all, it is a gift.
So what do you switch to? “Well, inocents will die, how can you be opposed to me now?” Does anyone want innocent people to die? Of course not! Will it happen? Yes. It is it acceptable? In times like these, yes it is. The term “War is Hell” isn’t the title of a Matt Groening book, you vile, wretched excuse for an American. It means war is filled with unpleasentries, pain and suffering. But sometimes, that IS justifiable when fighting for the greater good.
Sensitivity Training 101
People who should NOT be considered to teach this class:
[ul]
Lucky
Otto
[/ul]
Why do I get the feeling that Otto would be more comfortable ululating in the company of those who are celebrating the destruction in NYC, rather than cheering the President of the United States when he is thanking American heroes?
Buck The Diver <—EMS and proud of it
Quimby
Oh, sorry, I thought this was a discussion board and I thought discussions evolved, starting with one topic and then moving on to related or even unrelated topics. I didn’t realize that i was forever and eternally bound to do nothing in this thread but repeat variations on the OP. It’s not really my fault if you can’t understand that later posts of mine are amplifications on the OP.
Buck
Apparently it’s because you’ve foolishly bought into the notion that there’s only one acceptable response for real Americans to have. Now that someone has a response that varies from the one you think is proper, you’ve left yourself with little choice but to go to the opposite extreme. Big news for you, Buck. There’s a lot of middle ground between “bothered by the USA chant” and “celebrating the destruction in NYC.” I’m truly sorry for those who can’t see that.
I could have sworn you were the one trying to tell people what to do. Just a sec, let me read the subject again…“USA! USA! USA” Shut Up! I must say after a careful examination I can see how what that means “Persoanlly I do not think those USA! chants are appropriate, so I won’t do them. As for what others want to do, it is not for me to say.”
If I got the response that your OP did, I’d try to force a change of subject as well. I see the “logical” progression of your discussion, and I don’t blame you for trying to take the focus off of your original comments and turn it into something else. After all, you did say “Probably no point in responding to any of this. It’s doubtful that responding will change anyone’s mind.” And you are correct there, thank goodness. However I do blame you for being narrow minded and for having the inability to see the difference between the chants of the workers and the cheers of a sports crowd. They are NOT the same. Yes, the words are, but the intent, the spirit, the emotions and the circumstances are all different.
Sometimes if you don’t understand something, the more prudent thing to do is to keep your mouth shut. Especially at times like these in situations like this. And if you feel the overwhelming urge to say something anyway, choose your words more carefully than calling all Americans “boobs”, calling them “obnoxious” and telling them to “shut up”.
Just because you have an opinion, doesn’t mean you should share it.
(hijack):
azaezelya, you have put it into words better than anyone else has yet!! you go!!!!
(end hijack)Spiritus
Except that I reserve the right of self-defense, yes.
Tretiak
One obvious difference being that I’m not calling anyone a bad American or questioning their patriotism or labeling them an “enemy” of the nation or, as has happened IRL, done anything to silence them. If you choose to equate my saying “shut up!” to the chanters both at the site AND ELSEWHERE as equivalent to the threats of physical violence I have received IRL for doing nothing more than posting notices for a peace rally, so be it. I don’t see it that way.
Quimby
Except of course that when I was away for two days for unrelated reasons, a typical sentiment was
So don’t speak out again, except that if you don’t speak out again you’re an asshole and a post-and-run troll, except that if you do speak out again…and around it goes.
Except that starting this thread WAS an attempt to silence them. Otherwise you wouldn’t have put “Shut Up!” in your subject line.
(Bolding not mine, but it works at emphasising what I want to point out)
In your OP, where did you EVER mention anyone doing this chant “elsewhere”? All I got was:
(Emphasis is mine, this time)
Hm. Seems like you’re focusing pretty heavily on the WTC event, to me. Though I may have just gotten the abridged version. Damn publishing companies, always cutting out the important stuff.
Unless you don’t open your fucking mouth in the FIRST place. Jesus Christ, Otto, has it not occurred to you that what the vast majority of people has been saying might actually be true, and that maybe you DON’T understand everything that motivated those people to chant?
But you advocate that the US not act in self defense.
Hm.
Fuckhead.
Okay – I respect pacifism as a personal choice, though I neither practive it nor find it a practicable solution in teh general case.
Is there any particular reason you chose to answer one of my questions but not the other?
[/QUOTE]
Why do I get the feeling that Otto would be more comfortable ululating in the company of those who are celebrating the destruction in NYC, rather than cheering the President of the United States when he is thanking American heroes?
Apparently it’s because you’ve foolishly bought into the notion that there’s only one acceptable response for real Americans to have. Now that someone has a response that varies from the one you think is proper, you’ve left yourself with little choice but to go to the opposite extreme. Big news for you, Buck. There’s a lot of middle ground between “bothered by the USA chant” and “celebrating the destruction in NYC.” I’m truly sorry for those who can’t see that. **
[/QUOTE]
But in whose company would you feel more comfortable?
[note to self: insert “fuckwit” after “comfortable” next time]
But Otto, you did just that in the OP. You completely misunderstood their meanings and motivations and you said, in effect, that they were bad people.
Is was you who lacked perspective, not the people who chanted. But hey, you don’t like the chanting, that’s cool. You don’t have to chant. Somebody tries to make you chant or give you shit for not chanting, hell, I’ll stand with you. But when you run off at the mouth like you did, you gotta expect to be called an asshole.
So I’ll say it again. You misunderstood the meaning of and the motivation for the chant.
I hope that helps.
Monster104
If someone throws a rock through my window, it’s not self-defense to get in my car, drive to his house and beat him up. Military retaliation in foreign countries isn’t self-defense. It’s revenge. Vastly different scale, same underlying principle. Feel free to believe in supporting a military response, but please don’t pretend that blowing up Afghans who don’t support bin Laden or the Taliban is about self-defense.
Spiritus Mundi
The answer to the second question is implicit in the first. If pacifism were embraced universally there would be no need for weapons.
Buck
The Americans’. Cheering for future death is somewhat less repulsive than cheering for actual death.
spooje
No, I didn’t call them bad people. I said they engaged in a bad act. Engaging in a bad act does not automatically make one a bad person.
I guess I don’t understand the distinction between standing against someone who would give me shit for not chanting and standing against someone who gives me shit for critiquing those who chant.
Want to know why this is such a one-sided thread?
They keep deleting those posts that support you.
There were a couple yesterday, something that “sports heroism” is not all that heroic.
Just thought you’d like to know.
I KNEW that the various psychotic posts of the last few weeks would bring Mu-Shu out of the woodwork! And it’s a “the mods are EEeeEee-vil” post! Who’da thunk it?
Ok, everyone pay up. I’ll take my winnings in cash, check, cashier’s check, PayPal, credit cards or old Uncle $crooge comics by Carl Barks.
Mu-Shu, what’s life without lithium like, anyway?
Fenris