The thing is, though, that most vegetarians and vegans realize this. They don’t claim to live without killing animals (I drive, for instance, so I’m sure I kill bugs on my windshield every day). They just have a goal of minimizing the killing they do.
If you’re basing your description of a vegetarian or vegan diet as fraudulent because of the insects and rodents killed in the harvesting of fruits, grains and vegetables, as well as the loss of habitat, then you have to consider that by eating meat along with vegetables your more than doubling the problem.
The meat you eat was probably fed a large amount of corn and other grains that were harvested using the same farming techniques as the corn that the veg*ns eat. Plus, unless you only eat meat, you’re likely eating grains and veggies as well. So, by eliminating meat, you are significantly cutting back on this ‘collateral damage’.
I don’t claim to live without causing any animal death, nor do I think it’s possible. I just try to do what I can.
I’m still kind of hoping Wierdaaron will come back and tell me what he thinks would be so interesting about a conversation between a vegan and a hungry child in Africa.
It reminds me of the whole, “Clean your plate – don’t you know there are people starving in such and such country?” (When I was a kid, it was Ethiopia)
It didn’t make sense then, and it sure as hell doesn’t now.
Yikes, this has always been a mess here with Veg arguments, but, in the decade I’ve been on the SD, it has improved. mhendo has pretty succinctly said my experience with vegetarian life, and good others here.
I would like to add this, as somethin’ to chew on: I’ve been a vegetarian for 28 years, right, back in the day when it wasn’t easy. Got my system down, pretty good to go, glad to give folks recipes when they’re interested, and people are more interested in that now.
Lately, I’m helping a good friend who runs a sustainable ag farm: great horticulturist professor who is doing it all very thoughtfully to give a good practical example of how a farm can be done sustainablly. He had a bad car wreck, and is now in recovery, and I’m one of many friends who are helping him get up and about. Yesterday, we went out, with his walker, to look at the pigs they raise in good conditions. I am vegetarian for ethical rather not kill reasons, but I had no problem talking to him and looking at the pigs that would go to the slaughterhouse next week, right there in front of me, because I can differentiate. His purpose of farming is to show that pigs can be raised in decent conditions, and then used as food, and he figures out the best way to do that.
We had a good conversation watching the pigs, and discussing their intelligence, which he observes as being smarter than dogs. More conversation about eating creatures. I don’t, he does, and markets them, but I don’t at all have a ax to grind with anyone who eats meat. For my friend, I appreciate the fact that he is working to provide an example of how animals raised for meat can have a decent life for that purpose. It’s not that hard a dichotomy for my mind to comprehend.
I haven’t read the thread (other than the first page) so I’m just posting my experience and not answering anyone in here.
Two of my best friends are vegetarians. (Well, he is. She eats seafood.) They don’t berate me about my food choices, and I don’t berate them about theirs. They’ve been married… 13? 15 years? and they are quite happy together. When I eat at their place, I totally enjoy the vegetarian meals they make. When they visit me, I always make sure I have vegetarian alternatives. Works out pretty well, actually.
Jesus christ, don’t act like a fucking child. Have I said anything against vegetarians? I’m in here giving out tofu recipes for fuck’s sake.
And I wasn’t trying to assert (as others here are) that since you think eating meat is wrong, you must think me eating meat is wrong. I’ve said not one damn word in that direction.
What I said is that you took it personally when someone said he disagrees with vegetarianism, while maintaining that meat-eaters shouldn’t take it personally you disagree with it. Trying to seek special umbrage because the word “fraudulent” was used doesn’t change that fact.
I guess what I’m saying is, you didn’t need to take it personally.
And, I think this is important here: I don’t give a shit what the fuck you eat. You can eat rocks for all I care. I’ve got no affiliation with any food-eatery group. As I’ve said, my brother and sister-in-law are both vegans, and I’ve got no problem with them. It’s like a challenge to my culinary mojo. My argument isn’t against vegetarians, my argument is against you being a sanctimonious prick because someone made fun of your little club.
Which again makes me believe you’ve got far too much of your identity invested in your eating preferences. You’re acting like someone insulted your mother or your religion. If someone picking on your food choice is the thing that gets you most upset, your priorities need to be realigned. I don’t eat fast food. It’s a personal preference. If someone said that people who don’t eat fast food are assholes, I would give less than or equal to two shits.
Seriously. Dude. Calm down.
“stupidaaron”… that’s some high-class debate right there.
If someone says, “I’m not a vegetarian, and i don’t like vegetarianism because…” or “I could never be a vegetarian because i just like meat too much,” or even “I don’t know how people live without eating meat,” i don’t take it personally at all. I’ve made very clear in this thread, on multiple occasions, that people eating meat doesn’t worry me in the slightest. As i said, my wife eats meat, and i sometimes cook it for her. Just about everyone i know eats meat. Despite hanging out in predominantly lefty/liberal academic-type circles of people, i don’t actually know that many vegetarians.
When someone says “Vegetarianism is a fraudulent lifestyle,” i don’t see how i can take that as anything but an insult. It’s no less insulting and no less tolerant than a vegetarian saying “Eating meat is an immoral and murderous lifestyle.” Diogenes has every right to his opinion, but if that opinion is insulting and stupid, i reserve the right to respond in kind. I’m actually quite surprised that he can’t even see why people might take offense at it, because he’s usually smarter than that. You, apparently, are not.
That’s me taking your position. This is evidenced by the fact that I said “, right?” right afterwords.
Sort of like how if I said:
Because of the stuff I’ve said in this thread, I’m some kind of fucking idiot, right?
That would not be me saying I’m a fucking idiot. That would be me taking your position. For the sake of argument.
I don’t know what I’m doing here. Your idea of argument is “fucking asshole.”
If you had said absolutely anything to Diogenes besides that, we’d have no problem here. If you’d said “I disagree and here’s why” or even “You’re an asshole and here’s why.” All you did was call him an asshole. It’s bad form and makes you look like a reactionary unbalanced loon.
But i had already made clear that it was not, in fact, my position. The fact that you continued to attribute that position to me after i had specifically repudiated it suggests either that it was actually your position after all, or that you are too stupid to read what i wrote about my position.
Either way, you don’t look very good.
Anyway, i’m done with you. If you can’t take some insults in the Pit, you should probably hang out elsewhere, douchebag.
I don’t think religion is related too much to the issue we are discussing, but since you bring it up, wouldn’t it be weird if your spouse was a devout Christian and honestly 100% believed that you are eternally damned. You guys don’t talk about it, and you let each other be, and accept each other as is, but you know that the only conclusion you can draw from his religion is that he 100% believes you are going to hell. Wouldn’t that be a bit weird for the relationship?
I think there was a Seinfeld episode about that. Elaine was dating this guy who believed she was going to hell. She didn’t like the fact that he was so nonchalant about it… Found it! Here is the scene
Seriously, though, I guess the reason someone doesn’t mind that other people from other religions think they are damned is because they think that that religion is wrong and/or stupid, and so they don’t care what that religion predicts or says about them.
But, because the ethical system that results in vegetarianism (“don’t cause suffering to sentient entities”) is so close to the ethical system the mainstream uses (“don’t cause suffering to humans, and, as much as possible avoid causing suffering of any sentient entity”), the “accusations” it makes (implied or direct) are not so easily dismissed by people in the mainstream. There is a little voice in them that says “Maybe these guys *are *right. Maybe I am being an ass for eating meat”.
So that’s why I think some meat eaters feel uncomfortable by ethics-based vegetarians, even if those vegetarians don’t say anything to them.
Again, this is no reason for the meat-eaters to be rude to vegetarians. I’m just trying to describe why some meat-eaters get so defensive about their meat-eating habits and feel they have to attack to compensate.
Even though *you *don’t believe so, don’t you agree that there are vegetarians who believe that the simple act of killing and eating an animal, under any circumstances, is unethical?
If yes, then, by your reasoning above, they should believe that all meat-eaters are unethical.
So, if a meat-eater finds out that a coworker is a vegetarian because he believes that we should never kill and eat an animal because it is unethical, the meat-eater would know that his coworker considers him unethical, even if the vegetarian never says a thing to the meat-eater about his dietary choices.
I think there are two aspects to this issue
The simple fact that a coworker/friend, implicitly or explicitly, considers you unethical is a bit disquieting, even if the reason for his belief is something you can easily dismiss (e.g. if someone considers women who wear lipstick unethical)
If the reason for your coworker’s/friend’s belief that you are unethical is not something you can easily dismiss, since it’s based on an ethics system that is close to yours, then the fact that the coworker/friend, implicitly or explicitly, considers you unethical is even more disquieting.
It’s beautiful that you can decry mhendo being a sanctimonious prick while simultaneously being one yourself. “Your little club”? Nice.
OR maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t like being insulted for bullshit reasons. People get heated in the Pit over much, much less. Don’t play junior psychoanalyst and assume, despite what mhendo and others have explicitly said, that we are all fanatical vegetarians, just because we manage to get irritated by deliberate insults.
My parents did it for the entirety of their marriage: mother a devout Catholic, father an agnostic Jew. You might wish that the other person agreed with you, but if you love someone, you accept them as they are.
Several assumptions in this paragraph. First, that there is some “ethical system” to vegetarianism. If you’ve been reading along there, you’ll see that there are many reasons why people choose not to eat meat, and not all of them are what you say they are, ie., “Don’t cause suffering to sentient beings.” Because you allow yourself to assume this, you can then go on to make more assumptions, like the idea that somehow, my belief system constitutes an “implied or direct accusation.” How totally ridiculous. By that logic, yes, people’s religious beliefs about who is a sinner and who is blessed also constitute a “direct or implied accusation,” as do any and all ethical systems. So I have to disagree here. My ethical vegetarianism DOES NOT constitute an implied or direct accusation. Your choice to construe it that way is just that-- your choice, and one that allows you the latitutde to get self-righteous at me about my ethics when I have not imposed them on you in any way.
Meat eaters who feel that way are whiners with a guilty conscience. They might want to consider that it’s not all about them, and stop making it so personal, as wierdaaron advised mhendo.
What you’ve described is how a person might be so narcissistic and insecure that he would take another person’s belief system and make it so personal, even when the other person hasn’t said a word to him, that he feels justified in launching an unprovoked attack on that person. Thus, if you were hoping your explanation might make me more sympathetic to douchey meat eaters, you failed utterly. Ah well.
Just beacuse you keep saying this doesn’t make it true. Diogenes was clearly belligerent first. mhendo just made his insults more explicit and used profanity first. I don’t know why you are being so obstinate about this. Before Dio posted, the thread was about Curtis’ inability to understand the idea of an exclusive message board. Clearly Dio was looking for a fight.
Also, I don’t see any vegetarians in this thread being sanctimonius about vegetarianism, per se (show me an example, if you can). I only see vegetarians getting defensive when they are insulted/taunted.
Because, most likely, like most of the world, no-one gives a fuck about you beyond your immediate circle so your ethics, or judging from your behavior on the SDMB, lack thereof, are irrelevant to them.
And now that’s settled, if you feel so oppressed by vegetarians who don’t eat meat for moral/ethical reasons, I assume you also hate Jews who keep Kosher?
Because I assure you that, since most of my relatives keep Kosher, they couldn’t give a fuck about you or what you cram into your face.
I understand you have a tiny dick and it makes you insecure about people who don’t kowtow to your opinion and you troll as a response, but you’re being a bigger douche here than normal.
A few more datapoints.
In real life, in my experience, there’s about a 50/50 balance between asshole omnivores and asshole vegetarians.
On the Straight Dope it’s about 80% carnivore assholes to 20% veggie assholes.
I’m an omnivore and wish both the 80% and 20% would shut the fuck up and let the rest of us eat in peace.
