A frank revelation about a disturbing recent series of experiences:
I am a 37 year old gay man. Note that I do not say “bisexual”- I had sex with women when I was much younger (before I ever had sex with a man) and still going through an “it will pass” phase and I even enjoyed it, but it never did anything for me on anything other than the physical level. I’ve never been consumed with lust for a woman and in fact other than the occasional erotic dream (and in our dreams we can be aroused by anybody and anything from our grandmother’s hat to a squirrel we once saw) I’ve never even received woodery from a woman when physical foreplay and a tinge of fantasy hadn’t been initiated.
My sexual fantasies are exclusively homosexual and always have been since I was pre-adolescent. Should it matter I would describe myself as not effeminate but fairly obviously gay (basically masculine enough that if I weren’t out [which I am] people wouldn’t be 100% sure, but they’d probably suspect). I have no religious or psychic baggage over the gay issue, I’m not self loathing or anything like that, and generally speaking I’d say I’m between a 5 and a 6 on the Kinsey Scale (not that anybody really puts much stock in that anymore).
However… I have a female co-worker with whom I’m very close. She’s a great person- very attractive (not conventionally, but in my opinion), bisexual in her past but with a decidedly hetero leaning, super intelligent and funny, and if I were straight I’d have pounced on her long ago and I’m pretty sure she’d have reciprocated. The strange thing: the last two times we’ve gone out and really gotten into deep conversations and the like, I’ve had the oddest urge to kiss her- romantically, I mean- and I’ve become a bit… aroused. It’s not anywhere near the level I feel when I’m around a gorgeous guy, but it is definitely sexual. (There has been no alcohol or substances of any kind involved, at least not on my end.)
Now, I would never act on this- I would end the friendship first as I know without doubt that (no misogyny intended) a woman could just never do it for me as a life partner. I have no interest in a “what-the-fuck buddy” or “change of pace” affair. I do not see this as a “maybe I’m not gay after all” message and that’s not denial or labelling or anything else; to borrow a phrase from Angels in America, “I have a pretty unfailing barometer” of where my sexual interest lies. Perhaps I’m just horny (I haven’t been in a relationship in years and years and I live in a town with a very limited gay dating pool- essentially all the gay men here are either already coupled, way out of my age range, or too afraid of their parents and or their wives finding out to be of interest to me or I to them), or perhaps it’s just some vestige of my “perpetuate the species” instinct, or perhaps it’s just a pheremonal thing, but has any gay man had this feeling before and how did you deal with it?
Well, since a couple of crushes in early elementary schol, I’ve had negligible interest in girls, but have crushed on boys several times - even fallen in love once, I think.
But if there’s someone I liked, respected, enjoyed the company of, and felt like kissing, I’d figure I might be interested in them. I don’t know what leads you to believe “a woman could just never do it for me as a life partner”, but if you’re sure of that, then this seems to me a feeling that, if followed thorugh, would just disrupt a friendship and ultimately achieve not improvement on the current situation. I say continue as friends, and observe the feeling as it reoccurs to get a fuller understanding of its motivation.
Most of my romantic interests have developed from or via friendships that sound similar to what you’re describing. Most of them went nowhere because the other party was a straight guy, and I’m male.
I’m not a gay man but your post reminded me of what a gay friend of mine said awhile back. He has absolutely no desire to sleep with women - the idea vaguely repulses him. He doesn’t think he could have sex with a woman and orgasm without fantasising about men. However, occasionally he is mildly attracted to women. The women that attract him are usually small and slender but the men that attract him are large, muscular and hairy so it’s not like he’s attracted to a particular androgynous body shape.
Like you, he’s gay, he knows he’s gay, and he doesn’t see this as a crisis of sexuality. But it puzzles him.
My understanding is that very few people are absolute 0s or 6s on the Kinsey scale, and it needn’t stop you identifying as gay. I’m certainly not - I’ve been semi-attracted in the way you describe to two or three women before - and I’m one of the biggest fruits you’ll ever come across. It happens to straight guys, too. There’s no need to give yourself a complex over it.
Treat the question as if she were a guy – you’re mildly attracted to him, but you don’t think there’s enough there to build the relationship you want; you’re worried that sleeping with him would bring up a host of other issues you don’t need on your plate, as well as possibly ruining your friendship (and skirting fraternization and/or sexual harassment rules, I’d point out.) I’d say don’t bother.
In response to an underlying issue, I’d say move, preferably to a town with a half-decent gay community, if you’re en manque.
I don’t know if this helps, but I’m a heterosexual man who occasionally has ‘feelings’ for men; I don’t think I’d describe them as ‘sexual’ in a particularly explicit sense, but they are quite similar to those ‘Wow, she’s niiiice’ sort of things that I’ve felt for women.
It isn’t a problem as far as I’m concerned. I’d agree with what matt_mcl said about the Kinsey scale and then some; I think human sexuality is far too complex to express on a single linear scale.
One of my best friends is a gay guy. Before he came out to me in college, we kissed once. He always said that if he were straight, he would want to be with me
I think the main problem associated with the gay liberation movement and all the related phenomena is that gay men and women have bought into the divisive us vs. them mentality of those who were ostracizing them before, in order to achieve a coherent movement and activism group to get things fixed and to provide themselves with a sense of community.
There is no damn line that you have to identify as being on one side or the other of. Our own original prototype Gay Guy, Esprix, has confessed to particular letches for guys of Asian extraction – and for Sophia Loren and Jeri Ryan. (“But wait a minute – he’s gay!”)
You have feelings – filial, romantic, friendly, intimately friendly, paternal, sheer desire, or whatever – for whomever you have such feelings for. And everybody has a particular set of people whom they find attractive and for whom they have particular feelings – which may be two overlapping sets. Eros happens where and when it happens, not in accord with some specialized definition of what prefabricated category of people you happen to desire.
Saying “I’m gay; I shouldn’t be feeling these sorts of feelings for a woman” is only one step removed from “You’re a guy; you shouldn’t be feeling these sorts of feelings for another guy.” (Go back and reread that sentence.)
You lust for, and fall in love with, whomever you individually end up lusting for and/or falling in love with. You don’t have to abide by the rules of any prefabricated category.
If you find buxom blondes in string bikinis, slender brunettes in red sheath skirts, Gwyneth Paltrow dressed in white satin, Arnold Swarzenegger in a posing strap, and Haley Joel Osment in baggy Bermuda shorts attractive – that’s fine – that’s your personal and particular collection of erotic objects. Nobody said you had to pick straight, gay, or bi on your 13th birthday and remain in that stereotype.
Just wanted to applaud Polycarp for a wonderfully intelligent and thoughful post. I agree wholeheartedly.
I think far too often we (all of us, gay, straight, bi, whatever) create many of our own problems because we try to stay within the confines of what we believe our orientation should be, and when nature gives us conflicting signals we get confused.
People are people, and romance and attraction are far too complex to break down into simple categories. It’s nice to have a quick shorthand label to indicate our general preference, but it by no means is inclusive of everything within our own personal spectrums of attraction and intimacy.
There are women I find attractive. No big deal. Heck, I can’t even remember how I rate on the Kinsey scale, except to say it’s decidedly gay. I don’t see anything weird in your finding a woman attractive. I would advise against pursuing something with a co-worker, though, be that co-worker male or female. Besides the whole avoiding sexual harrassment in the workplace thing, office romances can lead to a really bad work environment if they go bad.
Don’t worry Sampiro, we still think you’re gayer than a debutante on holiday in Paris.
It sounds to me like this person really just makes you feel comfortable and happy. That’s great. You’ve painted a very flattering picture of her with just a few words.
To get a bit Freudian, could it be transferrance of affection? As in, you actually feel an affection bordering on kinship, but you’re transforming it into something sexual in order to comprehend it better? For example, you want to show her affection that demonstrates that you really dig her as a friend, but it ends up feeling sexual to you instead?
That’s going pretty far out there, but it really could be an influence.
I prefer Terry Pratchett’s “Gayer than a tree full of monkeys on nitrous oxide” (or my own “queerer than a three legged French speaking blue duck”), thank you very much.
Honestly, I flirted around with girls in elementary school like crazy… until about 6th grade. Then it was like… not there. dazed look
But, since then, I did have a girlfriend (for a week), and we hugged a couple of times. That’s about it.
Straight sex doesn’t really repulse me, but isn’t really my thing. That doesn’t stop me from being to say “Damn, she’s *hot[/]!” Just wouldn’t ever follow up on that at all. As in, I can recognize the beauty, but have no sexual interest in her.
I confused myself with this post. More caffeine needed. Fewer classes needed.
During wakeful hours, as when asleep, you can become aroused or attracted to damn near anyone. We all have pretty flexible capacities in that regard, I think.
(“Capacities, huh? Is that what we call it now?”)
Like most folks, I’ve had moments of feeling a wave of ::snarf that, mmm:: towards someone of other than the sex towards which most of those snarfy gimme-that feelings are oriented. Enough so that there was a time, when heterosexuality was a tangled nonworking mess for me, and I’d been accused/assumed to be gay by many people ('cuz I’m not overtly “masculine” and don’t “fit”), it made sense to pause and wonder “could they be right”?
Once you ask it that way, though, and consider how much of your erotic energy is polarized this way or that way and whatnot, it seems reasonable and appropriate to decide as you did — “It wouldn’t be fair to this person, or anyone else of that sex”
A couple discharges of static electricity does not a viable circuit (AC or DC) make.
Like some others that have already posted, I’m not particularly in favor of the labels that we put on ourselves - they seem too confining.
I identify myself as bisexual. I’ve had meaningful, emotionally satisfying, and scalding sexual relationships with both men and women. I’ve also had shallow, completely physical, tawdry relationships with both men and women. The gender of the person has never entered into the equation - if we’re attracted to each other, we’re attracted to each other. I happen to be married to a wonderful woman at the moment, but if something should happen such that I wasn’t married to her any longer, I’d be back in the dating pool and wouldn’t be discriminating as to gender.
My point is that if you’re more interested in what’s between someone’s ears than what’s between their legs, I don’t see a problem. I do see a problem if you think that acting on your feelings would harm an otherwise cordial relationship, or would make the work environment awkward - and that would be the case whatever the other person’s gender.
I myself identify as gay. I have had a relationship with a woman, however, since coming out. She knew I was gay, but yet I was somewhat attracted to her in spite of this- not as attracted as I am to attractive men, but somewhat attracted. Neither of us was dating anyone at the time, and it was understood on both of our parts that it was a temporary thing.
I was not able to consistently have a physical relationship with her without fantasizing about men during the act. We talked about this. She did not have a problem with it. It was overall a pleasant experience- until it ended.
She started dating a guy that we had both been hanging out with and the three of us had become fast friends. She decided she wanted to explore a relationship with him. This is how we both knew things would end from the start (either that, or me meeting someone) neither had illusions about this being a permanent thing. The odd thing is- I was extremely jealous. Perhaps I was naive about human nature- my own in particular - at the time, but I honestly believed that I was a big enough person to not have any problem with it when the inevitable happened. It did not work out that way.
I was miserable. I wrote a lot of really bad poetry about my own anger with myself, which I shared with my friends The poems were misunderstood- my anger at myself which I talked about in abstract terms was interpreted as anger at her. Eventually I got over it. We are still fast friends. They are married, and I am very happy for them.
They have two wonderful children that I adore. I am going to be running a pen and paper RPG this weekend for their oldest son this weekend. He just turned 13. The odd thing is, her resembles me (although not physically) so much it is scary- as everyone comments on. There is absolutely no chance at all that he could be my child, however, because it was well over a year after me and my friend stopped dating that he was born.
If I had to do it all over again, I probably would not change a thing in all honesty, other than giving myself some time away from both of them after the breakup. I cannot, however, ever see myself going something like that again.
I once had a thing with an intellectual. While a enough of my friends are, I’d never fancied one: it was just ‘ick’ to have someone like that touching you like that. But we sort of fancied each other and kissed a couple of times, though nothing ever came of it. But afterwards I was a lot happier: I knew that it wasn’t a big barrier, it was a choice I was making. I was ok with enjoying the experience, and knowing that no-one would care if I did it again, but it just wasn’t in the same league as some other experiences I’ve had, so now we’re friends, and I’m pretty much sworn off, though I’m always aware the perfect one may come along.
OK, you got me. Replace “intellectual” with “man”. But I think the analogy is clearer like this: it’s a society thing that makes such a big deal out of it. I was a lot happier when I said not “I don’t fancy men” but “I don’t fancy this man” every time. I realise I’m not really in a position to advise, but it might be worth a go.
But just to add another data point: I spent years and years in my “I can beat this!” phase, convinced that if I met the right woman, I could turn myself straight. And I met a lot of great women who I felt an intense emotional attraction to, maybe even loved. But when it came time to get physical, I just felt absolutely nothing. I still kept trying, convinced that one time it’d be like in the movies where I meet The One Person and everything would just fall into place. And still, ever since I was an adolescent, my fantasies involved men, exclusively.
I was just about ready to just say the hell with it and come out of the closet already, when I started hanging out more and more with a female coworker. We’d started hanging out in group settings, and eventually got to be good friends and spending more and more time alone with each other. One night we were talking out on a friend’s balcony, and I was just overcome with the thought, “Holy cow, she’s awesome. I have to kiss her right now!” I didn’t, but I couldn’t stop thinking about it. A short while later, we’d been out drinking in a big group and found ourselves alone outside the bar. To my surprise, she started kissing me. And to my greater surprise, I really liked it, a lot. All over. We made out for a while and then realized it’d be a bad idea to go any farther, because we were both pretty drunk.
But I kept thinking – hey! A breakthrough! I’m not all gay, there’s still hope! But still, every time I thought about sex, it was always with another man, never with her. Every time I was talking to her and I happened to notice an attractive man, I kept thinking about him. I eventually realized that I definitely have feelings for her, but they’re not sexual, and if I tried to say that they were then we’d end up in a relationship that wasn’t fair to her. Whatever physical attraction was there, faded quickly. She’s still one of my best friends, and it was such a huge relief to be able to finally come out and explain to her was was going on all that time.
)
More caffeine needed. Fewer classes needed.