Video of trump sexually humiliating woman on stage

I nitpickily wouldn’t call it “waiving her right to be treated like a human being,” but Dog Collar Lady presumably agreed in advance that it is acceptable to her to be treated in that particular way. The advance agreement is key. That’s why it is important to note that the Trump/Hawkins interaction was unscripted.

I’m going to ignore the issue of whether forcing other people to be your uncomfortable audience for your own pleasures (such as they are) is acceptable treatment of them because that’s a whole different thread.

steronz hit the nail on the head. The fact that you might get consent after the fact doesn’t justify accosting people.

I’ve described the similarities relevant to this discussion that I have observed. Are you about to ask if I genuinely believe you are a genetic clone of Trump with enhanced literacy?

I’m curious. WHY are the “Christians” supporting Trump, a man who embodies everything that violates their “values”?

I suspect the real reason is, they view him as a potential “Useful Idiot”. In other words, they don’t care about “values” they want a rubber stamp sitting in the White House (or his hotel).

Any “Christians” care to enlighten me? What makes this slug so worthy of support?

Christians make up 70% of Americans, according to the Pew Survey, and 75%, according to Gallup (and include both presidential and vice presidential candidates). Some support Trump, others don’t. It’s a diverse population with a diverse set of beliefs, and even if you just restrict the number to Christians who support Trump, the set of reasons is going to be so large as to make any generalization meaningless.

The Christians I know that are supporting him 1) don’t necessarily believe he’s done what is alleged, 2) think Hillary is pro-abortion and Trump is somewhere to the right of that (thus is an improvement) and 3) probably have some latent sexist beliefs they don’t want to articulate publicly about only a man running the country. Now, they don’t always fill every category, but that’s the breakdowns I see.

How about the other shit on the video? Right at the beginning, “I would have said she’s beautiful but wasn’t very smart. It wouldn’t be true, but I would have said it.” So you can add lying to things he’s admitted to.

If being sued for violently raping a 13 year old girl isn’t enough to deter his 50 million voters, this won’t make a difference either.

Bricker, I’m surprised by your analogy of the woman on a leash. I would have expected you to agree with the general teaching of your church that some acts, especially some sexual practices, even if consensual, are inconsistent with the dignity of human beings and therefore immoral. (Not to confuse the issue with the RCC’s pronouncements on which specific practices this teaching applies to–in any case I doubt there is specific canon law on dog leashes in public BDSM roleplaying) I certainly don’t think consensual acts like wearing a leash in public should be criminalized. I would be very cautious even in applying social pressure against it or expressing too strong a disapproval without knowing all the private facts. But my personal moral judgment would be that anyone who had a desire to treat a woman like a subservient dog is very likely to be a morally abhorrent person.

(It may be that the act itself is not immoral, if for example, the person holding the leash believed that treating a willing partner that way was a prophylactic against giving in to even more base desires, but that would only mitigate, not change, my judgment of the person’s character. Likewise, the person acting as the master may in fact be performing a service for the submissive partner without regard to his own desires. Neither of these contingencies seems particularly relevant to the Trump case.)

That’s not the only way your statement that consent, even after the fact, fails morally. You’ve indirectly almost acknowledged the insufficiency of ex post facto consent by positing that Trump and Hawkins have a longstanding friendship including such banter, such that Trump had reason to believe that her apparent protestations were joking rather than sincere. Of course, you don’t know this to be the case. You don’t even have any evidence for it. All you have is your observation of your (male) cousins and their bantering relationship, which you perceive to be similar. Others have said their experience shows the behavior to be more consistent with that of abuse victims and their abusers.

Even if you are correct, I find such behavior in a professional setting or on a public stage (or both) highly inappropriate. This is not a mere difference in culture between industries, as you allege. I won’t continue this line of reasoning here, but I will follow up if you don’t understand or agree how tolerating this type of behavior in those settings, even when consented to, leads to very bad outcomes.

But forget that minor digression. For the sake of argument, let us take Hawkins at her word that she consented to Trump’s behavior, even though her actions at the time seemed to communicate otherwise. But let us also take Trump at his word that he intended to humiliate her. And let us take you at your word that her mental consent is all that matters in deciding whether Trump’s behavior was disgusting or he did “nothing wrong.”

By this light, Trump tried to sexually assault her. He failed, only because he happened to pick a woman so used to abuse, so lacking in self-regard, that she considered his public sexual humiliation of her “respectful” (or, I suppose it is possible, so strong and confident and self-possessed that his attempts at humiliation were so much water off a duck’s back). Even so, she held up her arm to block him. Even so, she turned away. What more ought she have done had she wished to dissuade him? Trump knew anyone in that position would feel pressure to acquiesce whether or not they consented. He disregarded her protest and got lucky that she only protested for show (or unlucky since he wanted to abuse her, per this hypothesis).

Ignore how unlikely you might find this. (Though you’ve admitted that Trump has committed disgusting acts at other times. Surely you admit that sometimes people claim to have consented when they either did not or lacked the agency to do so.) Do you really believe that this behavior is just fine, as long as she goes along with it? Is this what you teach you children?

I’ll be frank. The position you stated is abhorrent. If you actually believe it, you are a disgusting monster. I’ve treated it with kid gloves and argued with it at great length here because I have gained tremendous respect for you reading your posts regularly over 17 years. But that respect doesn’t change the fact that what you have said in this thread sickens me. The fact that you have had time to consider it and have instead continued to dig in deeper surprises and saddens me.

Personally, I think Trump is a revolting disgusting pig. I wouldn’t let him anywhere near any women I know, not even the ones I don’t like. He’s a groper, a perv, a serial liar, a bully, a cheat, a thief, a deadbeat, a liar, a coward, and a fraud. He has no respect for anything or anyone. I see absolutely nothing good in him.

He is, in the German way of saying it, Backpfeifengesicht. A face badly in need of a fist.

I do.

I agree it’s likely.

I’ve also got the post-facto statement of the supposed victim.

If I reject that, I am essentially saying that her voice is irrelevant: what I observe, and not what she says, is controlling.

Even if it does lead to very bad outcomes, you’re no longer arguing about the question of whether Trump committed a non-consensual assault and are now arguing about whether Trump’s general behavior is positive or negative from a social good perspective.

Since I regard Trump as an almost completely unmitigated social ill, that will a short conversation.

No, that I cannot do. Certainly if I did, I would agree with your point. But to my ear, Trump’s on-stage admission that he intended to humiliate her was offered tongue-in-cheek.

Why, FFS?

Given Trump’s demonstrated tendencies to publicly voice similar “tongue-in-cheek” statements, why would you give him any benefit of the doubt?

Do you not subscribe to the cautionary advice that when people tell us exactly & repeatedly who they are, it behooves us to listen?

Your client is a self-discrediting interference whenever he opens his mouth or uses Twitter!

Because even Trump understands that it’s ineffective to lie when explaining to people how what you were planning to say was a lie.

That is, saying, “I was planning to lie to you and say X,” is not an effective method of saying X.

That maxim does not apply here. We are discussing a specific instance, not “who Trump is.”

You are so wrong. He’s toying with her and the audience. What he’s actually doing is, in fact, what he’s disingenuously claiming not to be doing. While fucking DOING IT with that semi-permanent shit eating grin on his face.

In this specific instance, as in every other instance, Trump is exactly who he appears to be. Give me a good reason to think otherwise. Because he’s prefaced it with a “I was going to lie”, disclaimer? :rolleyes:

Come on, Bricker!. I know you’re smarter than that.

Trump pulled this same crap in the first debate where he said “I was going to say some rough stuff about Bill Clinton but I couldn’t do it”. And he’s tweeted exactly like that too, saying “I could say X but I won’t”. It’s classic bully doubletalk BS.

And she was – and is – too stupid to know it?

But you aren’t, so screw her right to an opinion on the issue? She’s just too dim to know what was really going on?

I’m smart enough to credit her view as the controlling one over yours.

As RTFirefly pointed many times she did avoid him at the last second from planting a kiss in her lips. I don’t think she was dim, her actions do show a woman that did manage to stop the wannabe pig in chief from planting a kiss on her lips, for all we know she could be thinking that in the end she humiliated Trump in front on thousands because of that action captured on video.

I think what you are doing in the thread is really bananas, it would be like believing the testimony of the cop that planted evidence next to the guy he shot, over the recorded video that did show the cop doing that.

But as I pointed before I do not see the piggish behavior as the most important thing that is shown about Trump, but what his modus operandy will be if he becomes president regarding his enemies.

“Get even with people. If they screw you, screw them back 10 times as hard. I really believe that.” - El Trompo.

Is Hawkins the cop planting evidence, in this analogy?

No. As I remarked in the past there was a lot of talk about UFO’s and Police planting evidence on suspects and not telling what actually took place in their reports in the past.

Cell phones and other recording devices are actually turning evidence for one of those phenomenons that were usually declared as unlikely.

Of course, while this is related to looking at video evidence and not just accepting what people say it took place, one should not forget what Trump has said about drugs and law enforcement.

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/trumps-dopey-drug-policies

Yet another reason why one should not vote for Trump.