Watching LOTR again, couple questions

As mentione,d didn’t happen. He did put a locking charm on the tomb door, but that was simply incapable of holding back the power fo the Balrog. The charm worked - but the Balrog’s magic was too much and the door itself simply exploded from the strain.

No. He could do quite impressive feats of magic when necessary, but only the bare minimum and nothing even remotely like a DnD wizard. DnD spellcasters are more like Artillery Pieces on legs than anything human*. Others mentioned the specifics, but note that he was able to shatter a stone bridge strong enough to support the Balrog, light the camp on fire, counter the Nazgul’s city-wide aura of despair, remove most of Saruman’s power with a word, and when he came back may have been immune to any mortal weapon, and probably few immortal ones as well. It’s not flashy - but that doesn’t mean it’s weak.

*This is not a joke. The Wizard in DnD was based around rules for WW2 artillery. They jsut gave it a fantasy gloss and later, other kinds of spells.

The maiar, like Gandalf and the Balrog (and Sauron, originally) are not nearly as strong as the Valar (Pagan Gods, more or less). And they are merely creations of God Himself. The good guys are willing to, as Tolkein put it, sing the Song of Illuvatar. Because of this, there are limits to what they can do: they have to act in ways which don’t break the Song.

In other words, they cannot dominate. They can rule only when they have lawful, accepted authority. They can’t tear up the land willy-nilly. They don’t kill simply because it’s convenient, even if the consequences of not doing so might be terrible.

The bad guys can do all that, but they’ve lost so much it can’t even be conceived of. Their very place in the universe is lost to them. They can’t heal anything. They can’t lead - only terrorize. They can only be utterly ruthless overlords, or slaves. Sauron’s magic is only about control. He can build indestructable fortress - but the only thing it’s good for is domination. He can give humans immortality - at the price of turning them into miserable slaves with no will of their own. Even the Witch-King’s protection worked by hurting people trying to strike at him and destroying their weapons.

Even Morgoth, who was powerful enough to reshape the entire plane of existence (it wasn’t even a planet at first!), could never do anything we would consider “constructive”. Even culture or the arts were pretty much beyond him. Sure, it fits the needs of the plot. Obsiously, it’s a story. But it also makes internal sense when you consider what Gandalf was, and what Sauron was.

No, because the last time that happened the entire world was kicked in the gonads so hard it never entirely recovered. But note that Saruman also failed to use lots of big flashy destruction spells. He was able to call down a storm hundreds of miles away (amplifying and controlling the locally-appropriate weather) and he beguiled and persuaded those around him (one wonders if Grima did not start out as a bad man…)

That wasn’t the point. Middle Earth wasn’t saved by mighty, obvious powers. It was saved by the fact that its people - Elves, Dwarves, Men, Ents and even little Hobbits - were willing to stand up to evil and stop it. Gandalf’s mission was to make this possible and limit the damage. It was not his mission to make the choice or carry it out.

Besides, they had God Himself backing them up. It’s not like Sauron had the power advantage here.

Pervy hobbit fancier that he is :slight_smile:

I blame the pipeweed.

In the Beginning were the one god and the Valar and Maiar, and they hung around and sang. During this time, Morkoth (and his minions) tried to pervert the song and twist it to their own ends; the other gods & such sang in such a way that they were defeated and, eventually, the song died away and ended.

Then the one god said “Hey, guys, look what I can do: Instagram!” and he replayed their song in surround-sound 3D, and the First Age began.

So, they try to stick clear of magic because (a) yes, they really can alter reality with it and (b) what we’re really seeing is just the instant replay of something that has already happened, and if they didn’t sing any big solos in the first version, they don’t get any this time around, either.

eta: Oh, and, yes. Pipeweed.

While Aragorn and the Hobbits are heading to Weathertop from Bree, all nine of the Nazgul take on Gandalf on Weathertop. Frodo can see the lightening that Gandalf uses to fight them off, but doesn’t know that is what is going on he is so far away.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that whatever “magic” Gandalf performs tends to be related to fire… and he wears Narya, the Elven Ring of Fire. Coincidence? I don’t think so. (Although all we really know about Narya is that it helps him rekindle the fire of righteousness and valor in people’s hearts.)

Maybe he’s just a big, flaming pyro.

DnD magic is based on the Dying Earth stories by Jack Vance. In there the limit on your power is how many spells you could hold in your mind at once (IIRC commonly 3-4) and that you have to re-commit a spell to memory once having used it - so when you prepare for an expedition you need to correctly guess which spells are likely to be most useful, and pre-load them into your mind. IOW it’s more an ammunition and speed of reloading limit than a power limit.

His love of the halfling’s leaf has clearly slowed his mind.

No, not a coincidence. In his challenge to the balrog, Gandalf says, “I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.” Anor is the name of the sun in Sindarin. Gandalf’s specialty as far as physical effects go seems to be fire…he’s the pyrotechnician of Middle-Earth (remember that it was Gandalf the hobbits were waiting so excitedly to see at the Birthday Party, because of his fireworks). He doesn’t throw around a lot of flashy fireballs, but he’s master of the light and flame of the sun, which he mostly uses to, as you said, rekindle the fires of the souls of the Free Peoples.

You’re obviously thinking of Goodgulf…

Actually, it certainly was not one of them. Gandalf specifically says that in between being Grey and White, he “walked beyond the bounds of time and space”, or something to that effect, and the Valar have no jurisdiction out there. The only being who could have sent Gandalf back was God Himself.

And not necessarily even that. The movie shows the storm as being Saruman’s work, but in the books, nobody’s sure if it was him, or the mountain’s work, or just a purely natural storm at a really inconvenient time.

And cjepson, the thing about Gandalf wielding the Ring of Fire has been pointed out many times, to which the response is always “Yeah, could be”.

And while we’re at it, the Secret Fire was not anything particularly associated with Gandalf or his ring, but is rather Tolkien’s term for the Holy Spirit. Gandalf is warning the Balrog that he reports to the Big Guy himself.

Right. It always seemed really unlikely as a coincidence to me, though.

Although in Vance, the spells were ridiculously powerful - equal to very high-level DnD effects. Likewise, if Gandalf is translated to DnD, he’s usually considered to be pretty low as a Wizard - around 5th level in most games. However, he’s considered to have pretty solid level of Fighter, like 7th-9th.

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Hmm, reading the letter again, it’s seems we are both wrong. It’s not necessary to defeat Sauron to make full use of its powers. But neither is Sauron reduced to impotence merely by mastering the Ring, his physical defeat is required. So, the Balrog would likely have been unable to defeat Sauron as you say, difficult to see where it could have raised the required armies from to assault Mordor.
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That’s what I would consider “mastering” the Ring, I guess. You can use it’s powers without defeating Sauron. But until/unless you do, it’s always going to betray you. Semantics, I suppose.

I still say that the Balrog couldn’t take Lorien - there’s a heck of a lot more than Galadriel, and enough arrows alone to give it a very, very bad day. It was incredibly tough, but not invulnerable and Balrogs died to far weaker threats than the entirety of Lorien.

In every known case we have of balrogs being defeated in battle, it took a great heroic figure to do it, and the heroic figure also died in the process. I’m not so sure that a conventional army could have done the trick.

Re: the door in Moria, since we’re enjoying ourselves:

Gandalf decides to put a shutting spell on the door, but has to “make do” since a spell of that kind normally takes time, and even then the door could be battered down.

The Balrog (not then known to be one) touches the door from the other side, realizes there is magic on it, and responds with a counter spell of its own - which Gandalf say “was terrible. It nearly broke me”.

The door begins to open, Gandalf responds with a short powerful spell, a word of Command. But that’s more than the poor door can deal with, and it breaks. There is a small cave-in from which Gandalf emerges and, as it turns out, so does the Balrog a little later.

Going back to Fellowship, one thing I seem to remember from the books and was ignored in the movies was that once Bilbo left after his birthday party and Gandalf handed the ring to Frodo, about 60 years passed. In the movie, it seemed Gandalf left to do some research and came back weeks later.

Anyway, my question is with the scene right after the birthday party. Bilbo was going to go off to an adventure and Gandalf says he should keep the ring here and pass it to Frodo. Why? At the point, Gandalf doesn’t know it was the One Ring. At the most, he seems to think it was messing with Bilbo’s mind, but he wasn’t afraid of it. He knew about Gollum, but I don’t think he knew Gollum had it for 500 years and was a hobbit yet. So why the big push for Bilbo to leave the ring behind? Bilbo ends up in Rivendell anyway, so it doesn’t seem like Gandalf really was worried that Bilbo was going to get into trouble by letting him go off alone.

He had uncomfortable suspicions - basically, that Bilbo is acting kinda funny, and, well, he hasn’t aged since he was 50. Clearly, SOMETHING weird is going on, and the Magic Ring is the likely cause. Therefore, looking out for his friend, Gandalf figures it’s time for him to pass the ring on. The whole “my precious” bit during the surprisingly difficulty parting just served to cement his feelings that something was wrong.

I think the overt display of magic when using the ring bugged Gandalf a little. (Along the lines of “this is unusual/this isn’t natural/something’s fishy here.”, NOT “damn that hobbit!”.)

Most “good” magic tends to be subtle and not flashy, and you couldn’t get more flashy than vanishing into thin air right before peoples eyes.

For what it’s worth, the Middle Earth Roleplaying system tried to posit that magic upsets that natural order of things (which “good” beings are loath to do). The more you try to bend the rules in Arda with magic, the more likely you are to be seduced by the power of the dark side (power corrupts).

So, maybe since Gandlaf couldn’t/wouldn’t accompany Bilbo on his old age walk-about, he felt maybe the ring would only bring Bilbo trouble, trouble that Gandalf wouldn’t be around to fix.

Seventeen years, actually.

Bilbo’s Birthday Party was on September 22nd, 3001 (which was also Frodo’s 33rd birthday). IIRC, Frodo inherited the ring at that point (though, he obviously only knew of it what Bilbo knew).

Gandalf returned to Bag End on April 12th, 3018, after doing his research, and that’s when he discovered for certain (by seeing the writing on the ring after heating it) that it was the One Ring. Frodo set about to leave Hobbiton, but it took him several months to sell Bag End and make preparations; he left Hobbiton (with Sam and Pippin) on September 23rd, 3018.

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