West Wing Two Cathedrals - what makes something "non-denominational"?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I was raised a Catholic and I can’t quite understand the following argument from the (best TV) episode (ever in history), key part copied here:

JED
It wasn’t a non-denominational service.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
Of course it was.

JED
It wouldn’t have felt non-denominational if you were Jewish.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
It was a non-denominational Christian service.

…

[firmer] It was a non-denominational service.

JED
“Our Father” is not non-denominational.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
Everyone says “Our Father.”

Jed picks up another file from her desk and they both walk out of her office into the
hallway. They pedeconference.

JED
Catholics don’t. Catholics don’t say, “For thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory,
forever and ever.” [shrugs] You know? I’m just saying.

So, in my experience Catholics do indeed say “Our father”. "We also say “Yours is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, forever and ever.”

Has Sorkin made some kind of mix-up? Am I wrong? Can anyone explain this, It has bugged me for years.

2

Oh no, wrong forum!

3

Catholics didn’t say the kingdom, power, and glory part in the 60s:

4

Thank you Lord! That makes sense now.

5

The “for thine is the kingdom . . .” bit is often called the “doxology”. (“Doxology” is a generic term for a short hymn or verse of praise that is used to mark the end of a prayer, but when people talk about “the doxology” they usually mean this one.)

The Lord’s Prayer is so called because, according to the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, it was given to the Twelve by Jesus. In the gospel versions, there is no doxology so the doxology is, strictly speaking, not part of the prayer given by Jesus.

From pretty early on, Christians did conclude the Lord’s Prayer, when used in their liturgies, with the doxology. It was then reverse-engineeered back into some late Byzantine versions of Matthew’s Gospel, though it never made it into the Vulgate.

Some of the earliest English translations of the Bible produced by Protestant reformers were made from the Byzantine texts, in the (erroneous) belief that they were among the most ancient. As a result, they too include the doxology in Matthew’s version of the Lord’s Prayer (but not in Luke’s). Notably, it turns up in the King James Bible (Mt 6:13).

This led to a practice among Protestants of routinely including the doxology whenever the Lord’s Prayer is said, and of regarding it as part of the Prayer. It is still so regarded, in some Protestant traditions, even though modern translations of the gospels all or nearly all omit the doxology from Matthew’s gospel.

The doxology is used in the Catholic Eucharistic liturgy, but it’s separated from the Lord’s Prayer by another prayer, said by the presiding priest, called the “Embolism” (“Deliver us, Lord, from every evil and grant peace in our day . . .”). It’s not regarded as part of the Lord’s Prayer, and when the Lord’s Prayer is said outside of the Eucharist liturgy, Catholics never include the doxology.

6

Nitpick - Most Catholics may take “the doxology” to mean the last bit of the Lord’s Prayer, but in many Protestant denominations “the doxology” brings to mind the following:

Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
Praise him all creatures here below.
Praise him above ye heavenly hosts.
Praise father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Amen

7

What would a truly non-denominational prayer sound like?

8

Maybe

God is great
God is good
Let us thank Him
For our food.

Dig in!

9

“Does everyone know the Ten Commandments? Let’s eat.”

10

That depends whether non-denominational means any Christian denomination, any God-believing religion, or anyone at all. For a funeral (which is the subject of Two Cathedrals), this prayer from the Reform Jewish prayer book has been suggested:

*In the rising of the sun and in its going down,
We remember them

In the blowing of the wind and in the chill of winter,
We remember them

In the opening of the buds and in the warmth of summer,
We remember them

In the rustling of leaves and the beauty of autumn,
In the beginning of the year and when it ends

We remember them
When we are weary and in need of strength

We remember them
When we are lost and sick at heart

We remember them
When we have joys we yearn to share

We remember them
So long as we live, they too shall live,

For they are now a part of us as
We remember them*

Many Reform Jewish prayers work for any denomination, since they don’t reference Jesus, and often don’t even reference God, and they don’t tend to include much official denominational language.

11

Or as I heard it:
Rub-a-dub-dub!
Good grub!
Yay, God
Amen.

12

Unitarians have an entire prayer book filled with prayers that don’t reference God or Jesus as well.

Sometimes they do - seldom Jesus, sometimes God. But there is plenty to pick from that doesn’t.

13

The funeral in that episode (not the “non-denominational” service that Jed is referring to in the quoted dialogue) would have been an Episcopal service and used the order of service for The Burial of the Dead from the Book of Common Prayer. According to the rubric, the Lord’s Prayer is not said until The Committal, the actual placing of the casket in the ground. The part of the service that takes place in the church (the Collects, the Liturgy of the Word, the Eucharist (if used), and the Commendation). So at the point you’re leaving the church to go to the cemetery or columbarium or wherever the body will be placed at rest, you haven’t heard the Lord’s Prayer yet.

14

The only non Catholic at Catholic High School, 1972-74, I alone at home room prayer said, “For Thine is the kingdom and the glory, forever and ever, amen.”
I was surprised to not be hassled about it.

15

Let us thank Him, Her, or Them (if He, She, or They exist)

16

To add further complication, some Christian congregations describe themselves as “non-denominational”, which usually just means that they’re very strongly denominational, they just don’t want to say which one.

17

This one always puzzled me, since I understand “denomination” to refer to the name of a particular tradition of Christian belief and/or practice. And if a particular congregation has beliefs and practices which emerge from (say) the Presbyterian tradition of Christianity and which can be meaningfully categorised as Presbyterian, isn’t that their denomination?

But I think what a church means when it identifies as “non-denominational” is that it’s not part of a larger organisational structure within which it forms its beliefs and practices, and to whose leadership it is accountable. It may still have beliefs and practices which are strongly associated with a named tradition of Christianity.

18

There’s also the Burns Grace:

Some hae meat
But canna eat.
Some hae no meat
That want it.
But we hae meat
And we can eat
And sae the Lord be thankit.

19

I can’t answer your theological question, but I can confirm the truly important part of your posting…‘The West Wing’ was the greatest tv show in history! I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve watched the entire series from start to finish. I have the ‘Special Edition 7-season Box Set’ and it’s my ‘go to’ when I have noothing else to watch or read! I never get tired of it…

Although, for me, the best episode (rather, my favorite episode) is Season 6, Episode 4 “Liftoff”. It’s the one where Claudia Jean (CJ) is promoted to Chief of Staff…I love it! I was devastated when the show ended, but I suppose that a show based on a two-term President and his staff, so it had a maximum shelf-life of eight years. But I still miss it…

20

At my Boy Scout summer camp it was:

“Rub-a-dub-dub
Thanks for the grub
Yay, God!”

We still use that in our family now and then. I also like Apu’s prayer from The Simpsons:

“Good rice,
Good curry,
Good Gandhi,
Let’s hurry!”