If you cannot compare animals to humans in any way, then why even bother arguing for better conditions for them?
If you will include whales or primates in your moral universe, what makes them different than cows or pigs? Why the distinction?
Just because I think that comparing human slavery to animal husbandry practices is wrong and typical of hard core vegans does not mean I don’t think we should not respect the animals and give them a decent quality of life. I see no issue here.
The distinction is one that sits well with me. We are primates so i guess that I feel a familial bond. I can farm a pig or cow and they can live a nice life until they end up dead but you cannot farm a whale or dolphin. Some might say that farming fish is as bad as farming a whale as the fish is not allowed to live naturally but fish are dumb..
[quote=“florez, post:98, topic:610336”]
I don’t have a problem with people who take an ethical stand and that openly admit that they are imperfect.
But I’ve seen with my own eyes “ethical” vegans who refuse to eat the simplest foods because they may contain teeny tiny insect parts, but they have no problem screaming about a roach and asking someone to stomp on it for them. Or putting Advantage on their dog or cat. Or working in a biology lab where fish and macrointebrates are killed in the hundreds every day. (Lots of biologists are vegan or veganesque–a position that I totally do not understand because we are frequently required to destroy life in our efforts to study it).
I don’t like playing “gotcha!” But to me, to go there with the slavery analogy–if you’re going to be about freeing the slaves, you can’t do that part-time. You can’t say, “I believe slaves should be free!” while working at a slave plantation as the accountant. The point about “every little bit counts” is fine…until it becomes a farse. If I decide I’m only going to eat chicken once a week–but I’m against poultry farms goshdarnit!!–I’m no different from the slave abolitionist who’s against slavery goshdarnit!!, except when it’s time to go to the big ball and Mammy is called upon to make a dress. Such a person is diluting whatever political stand they think they are taking.
Though I agree that our society makes it hard to be a total vegan.
My thoughts on this.
Everyone makes their own distinction on how much exploitation of animals they are comfortable with. Even Vegans and vegetarians do. Plenty of creatures are killed to allow arable farming, and what do you think made the oil and gas that drives our vehicles and powers our homes? Just by existing and interacting with the world we all harm animals in one form or another.
I believe there is a spectrum of cognition and self-awareness. The ability to feel pain and to suffer is probably universal (though again, the severity and nature exists on a spectrum).
It makes sense to me that when raising any animal that we minimise the pain and suffering we cause.
However, there is a line to be drawn when the animal has sufficient self-awareness and the associated distress that can be caused by that.
e.g. a chicken won’t be too worried that its “friends” walked into a barn and didn’t walk back out again whereas a chimp might.
Arbitrary lines I know, but that’s where I draw them. What’s more, my feelings will change if the scientific evidence is strong enough. Should it be shown that the chicken is self-aware and capable of suffering mental distress through expectation and empathy for others…well, I would have to draw the line somewhere else.
Well… I’m not vegan and have no intention of being on, but assuming an adequate vegan diet potential positives are:
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Much reduced chance of heart disease, and possibly reversal of some types of heart disease
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Less chance of obesity
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Potentially a reduction of the severity of Type II diabetes, or even a “remission” of the condition
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You won’t have to worry about eating contaminated meat products
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Less heavy metals such as mercury in your diet (they tend to become concentrated as you move up the food chain)
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You will not be a direct cause of animal suffering
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Some people find it an ethically/morally superior diet
That said, most of the above can be achieved by a reduction of animal products in your diet and do not require an elimination. Anyhow, that’s seven reasons, you’ll have to find three more on your own.
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Not necessarily true, you can have a diet very high in saturated fat even 100% vegan, such as coconut oil and palm fruit oil, and the worst are trans-fats which are 100% vegan.
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Again, not necessarily true,
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false
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- True, not contaminated meat products, just contaminated plant products. Lettuce is the worst source for salmonella, for example.
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Worst in certain fish, true.
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But you will cause plant death.
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Some people find eating a holistic, integrated agricultural model, one which promotes “best use” for the land, as most “ethical”.
The high GI of carrots has been questioned, I’m not clear on the details but from conversations with a GP it may have to do with the GI having been measured using cooked carrots, never raw ones. Given that many people only eat carrots raw, for them it’s akin to measuring the cooked GI of boiled lettuce.
Plant death? Is that really an issue?
And those people are omnivores. But she’s making a case for why people would choose to be vegan/vegetarian, so saying “well some people don’t agree with that” seems kind of stupid and irrelevant.
We have a couple of friends who switched to a full vegan diet about 5 years ago. Since doing so, they have both gained a fair amount of weight and are on the edge of being fat/obese. We’ve eaten with them many times, and to my omnivorous palate, their foods are heavy, greasy, oversauced, and overprocessed. I have no doubt that our homemade chicken parmesan, as an alternative, is vastly more healthy and nutritious than their vegan staples.
Also, to respond to another poster’s comment, a vegan diet does not drive care and attention to a health, a healthy diet does. Don’t assume ‘vegan’ is an inherent subset of healthy.
Everyone picks a level where they are comfortable ethically with eating. For most, it’s “don’t eat your own species”. For others, it’s “don’t eat sentient species”, then there’s “endangered species” (I draw the line at endangered or sentient) “poorly treated animals” “warm-blooded animals” “animals big enough to see” “plants” then like Fruitarians, not even killing plants to eat. Then there’s Breatharians, aka “dead people”. But still, choosing to kill plants to eat is a ethical line.
First, I send POTENTIAL positive, nowhere did I guarantee anything, and I also said ADEQUATE diet - you could call a diet of white bread and olive oil vegan, but that’s no one’s idea of adequate or nutritious.
Yes, you can construct totally crap vegan diet, big surprise.
Yes, not necessarily true, hence the phrase LESS CHANCE not “guaranteed to make you slimmer”. While you can become obese on vegan foods MOST people wind up losing weight when switching to a vegan diet.
If a change in diet results in weight loss and greater consumption of fiber, yes, it CAN lessen the severity of Type II diabetes, even to the point of no longer requiring medication. Doesn’t mean you can stop being vigilant (hence “remission” in quotes) and it’s not guaranteed (hence the word “potentially”) but yes, it can. As noted, you can have a crap vegetarian diet but most of them tend to have more fruits/vegetables/fiber and fewer calories than diets containing a lot of meat and animal products.
OK… that in no way negates my point, as omnivores have to worry about both types of food contamination.
Not necessarily. A rather extreme form of vegetarianism restricts the person to foods that don’t result in the death of the plant. But aside from that, you have to eat something if you intend to remain alive. Vegetarians may cause “plant death” but omnivores cause both plant and animal death.
Uh… yeah, and your point is? Your statement in no way negates mine. Clearly, there is more than one theory on what is the most ethical way to eat.
But, equally clearly, you missed my closing point, which was:
That said, most of the above can be achieved by a reduction of animal products in your diet and do not require an elimination.
Just a couple pieces of advice, take it or leave it.
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The only reason to go vegan is because YOU really want to and feel strongly about it. Whatever your motive, if your heart isn’t behind it, it will probably just be a miserable struggle the whole time.
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It might be hard at first, but the sooner you can give up trying to find things that taste like “the real thing” or what you used to eat, the happier you will be. Its never going the taste the same as that stuff, but guess what… there are still plenty of great meals to be made/eaten out there. Sure, every once in a while i want the comfort of a veggie burger and fries, but as the years go by i find myself going to that well less and less.
FWIW, i’ve been vegetarian for about 8 years, and vegan for about 4. In 2011 i ran a personal best in the Marathon, and completed my first 2 ultra-marathons (training to do my first 50 miler in 2012!)… but eating healthy and exercising is a priority for me, you can certainly be an unhealthy vegan, or a healthy omnivore… its about more than the surface level distinction of being vegan or non-vegan.
You know what they say: once you go vegan, you’ll probably go back!
Ok, you make some good points, but still, as I said, there are no actual health benefits (for a normal person) from a vegan diet that eating sensibly cant achieve.
Correct.
I actually have met very few people who remain truly vegan any significant length of time. However, the attempt does seem to expose them to a more varied diet with a higher percentage of plant derived calories than the normal western diet, so the experience may well have beneficial effects.
As long as they don’t define “vegan” as “french fries and Doritoes”.
Personally, I take a “flexitarian” approach - I might go several days without eating meat, but I don’t rule it out entirely. Much of the same benefits, but without the deprivation.
All that roughage? You’d better believe it.
That depends on the prevalence of bovine spongiform encephaly, doesn’t it, at the very least?
I was an ethical vegetarian who became a “vegan” strictly for health reasons. So actually I’m on a plant based diet…no animal products, no dairy or eggs. However, most people would not define me as a vegan. I wear leather, eat honey, etc. There needs to be a new label for people who are eating vegan but not for ethical reasons. Plant based just sounds like you eat a lot of vegetables.
Anyway, I’ve only been on it for about 4 months and don’t eat processed foods (including fake meats) and am using added oils and sugar sparingly. No more high blood pressure, cholesterol dropped 34 points, etc. I feel great and its easier than I thought it would be. There’s a lot of science now showing the benefits of a plant based diet. Lower rates of heart disease, diabetes, cancer. No, I don’t have a cite, easy enough to look up on Pub Med though. I don’t try to get anyone to do this or even talk about it too much. If someone asks me, I’ll tell them.
People get angry sometimes even if you’re not at all pushy or obnoxious about it. I saw part of an interview with Portia Rossi where she said she gets a lot more flak from being vegan than from being a lesbian. You might want to read The China Study. Bill Clinton read it and says he’s on a vegan diet now (because of all the bypasses, I imagine).
Call yourself a “Fooditarian” and that you follow Michaels Pollan’s guides. Mind you he doesn’t say “eat NO meat” but you’re close enough. That way, a occassional piece of fish won’t make you feel guilty, either.
But it is NOT *plant based *which is healthier. Yes, cutting out junk food, excess meat and fast food is great, along with adding MORE veggies. But one can eat pure crap entirely plant based OR eat a very healthy diet with a omniverous diet. It’s slightly harder to eat crap by eating vegan, true, but some manage it- as Broomstick sez “french fires and Doritos”.
Yes, do cut out the processed foods (including fake meats) and use added oils and sugar sparingly- all good advice.
Why? It’s junk science. If you’ve fallen for it, you may want to read the following:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/cancer/the-china-study-vs-the-china-study/