Cool. Argue that, and stop pointing to the UN treaty as if that settles the debate.
…that doesn’t say anything about specifically “building murder centers” and “kill any person they can get their hand on.”
This is addressed in the South African submission on page 59, section D, “Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials
and Others.”
Edited to add: “Intent” is often considered the hardest thing to prove in cases of genocide. But in this “war”, Israeli officials just “tweeted it out.”
ISTM the debate is about definitions and the UN treaty is kinda definitional. You might say you murdered me in this debate but, really, it is not the accepted definition of murder. You will not go to jail for it because the legal definition does not meet the criteria for murder.
We can work back to the OP and a pogrom vs race riot. As someone mentioned above this is all kind of a continuum.
So, umm, reading that could it have gone like this,
The World: Germany you are genocidal monsters!
Germany: Genocide? We had no plans to kill any Easter Island Jews, just every Jew in Europe.
The World: Well why didn’t you tell us! That’s not genocide that’s just ethnic cleansing!
Yes, I’m aware that employing metaphor is insufficient to meet the standard for criminal homicide.
Do you think people are being metaphorical when they accuse Israel of genocide?
No. It is hyperbole. As has been posted above.
I am NOT saying Israel is without guilt here (far from it). But it is not genocide.
I think we have both provided abundant citations. I am fine leaving it at that.
…fucking coward.
NONE of your citations support your contention that this isn’t a genocide.
You provided definitions. Definitions that were used by the people in my cites to support the argument that this is a genocide.
This is the sum total of your case. This is it. You didn’t even have the decency to look at the evidence.
“It isn’t a genocide because Whack-a-Mole said so” is all you’ve got.
Well, that settles it then. There was no genocide in Armenia or Cambodia. I mean no boxcars=no genocide, right?
I’m curious about your feelings on the second largest group of victims of the Holocaust, you know, the 3.3 million Soviet POWs murdered by deliberate neglect. I’m guessing they weren’t the victims of genocide or even a part of the Holocaust as far as your concerned since that’s the only way to be logically consitant with the boxcar theory of genocide, right?
With all due respect, there have been plenty of race riots that haven’t fit that definition.You may recall that in the Chicago Race Riot of 1919, the violence was instigated when a white man threw rocks at and drowned a young Black man whose raft had strayed into the water off the de facto “white side” of the beach. (There was no de jure segregation of Chicago beaches.) When Black eyewitnesses argued against the white officer who refused to arrest the culprit, whites began attacking Blacks… Black neighborhoods were targeted and destroyed by whites, who also murdered Blacks workers traveling to and from work. Blacks organized to protest the violence and protect themselves and their families. About 2/3 of the 38 people who died were Black, as were most of those injured, and thousands of Blacks (and few if any whites) lost their homes.
See also the Red Summer riots in Washington, DC and Omaha for other examples of race riots in which the ethnic group in power was directing violence against an ethnic group not in power.
Yes, and I think those should be seen as pogroms not race riots. These were groups of white people attacking black communities, which I see as the American equivalent of groups of Russians attacking Jewish communities.
The argument that the Chicago Race Riot of 1919 has to be a race riot because that’s what it’s called seems too tautological to me.
Almost definitionally obtuse.
Clearly being efficient is not the hallmark of genocide. Efficiency does denote effort though towards a goal. The person/entity is trying to get better at it.
If one person kills one Jew with the admitted goal they want to kill all Jews is that genocide?
Where is your line drawn?
How is Israel committing genocide as opposed to ethnic cleansing? What definitions are you using?
Maybe phrasing it another way will help.
Does anyone here think these are the same things?
Riot / race riot / pogrom / ethnic cleansing / genocide
Are they distinguishable from each other? Is it numbers? Percentages? Something else?
What, if anything, differentiates those terms?
Time will certainly tell, but how would we know in advance what Israel is planning? Some Israeli politicians are on the record stating they want a genocide, while others say they do not.
…you posted the definition of genocide multiple times. Why are you so confused? It requires more than just intent. If you asked this question to a professor that studies genocide, what do you think their answer would be? How about an expert in international humanitarian law? Do you think they would draw a different distinction if you then asked them about Gaza?
Why do you think the distinction matters?
Israel are committing genocide AND ethnic cleansing. That’s what the evidence suggests. We’ve sugar-coated this conflict enough. We need to call it exactly what it is. They are shooting kids in the head with drones. Sending thousands of men to torture camps where they get beaten, humiliated, and in some cases, sexually assaulted and raped. The north of Gaza has been effectively starved for the last 40 days. 710 children below the age of one have been killed. 902 families completely wiped out from the register. Entire generations of people…gone.
And thats what we know. The real scale of death and destruction will be much worse than this.
And the worst thing is that people can’t escape. A UN spokesman talked about the utter depravity here. How this was unlike any conflict they had covered before. With other genocides at least you had hope for escape. But nobody can leave. You talk about boxcars. They don’t need them. They people are trapped. Forced to move from one deathtrap to another. Some living in tents, but I’m hearing from people on the ground that they aren’t even allowing tents in aid convoys any more.
I’m reading daily tweets from Palestinians I’ve been following that are talking about having to sleep in basically freezing flood water. Sometimes someone will share their final farewells…and then silence.
I have no idea why you would want to minimize this. Its a daily slaughter. Not ten minutes ago another report from the ground of another slaughter. One building. Over a hundred people in it. “Children’s voices are now heard from under the rubble. No one can get them out.”
A few hours ago they bombed Khaled Ben Walid School. 7 killed, 5 were women and chldren.
An attack on the Al Arouki family’s home tonight as well. 22 dead, mostly women and children.
A bomb on bomb a residential block of the Madhoun, Khader, Nassar and Shakoura families. 40 killed.
A bomb in the "safe zone of Mawasi, south Khan Younis. Hitting tents. Killed six.
This is just a scattering of the reports in the last five hours. Nowhere is safe.
Add to the human death toll the deliberate targeting of schools and universities and government building and hospitals and medical centres and churches and mosques and historic sites. The fact they are forcing people out of their homes and literally burning those homes down.
They are being starved. And slaughtered. And tortured. And deprived of the fundumentals of life.
In the case of genocide, we are using the very cites that you’ve provided. I’ve linked to the evidence. I’ve linked to the arguments. If you really want an answer to this question, you’d take a look.
I did look at some of your links (as the counter should tell). It is trivial to Google some asshat who is shouting “genocide.” There are a million of them out there using hyperbole to be edgy and get a click.
My citations were definitional and/or by academic sources. Again, I will happily stand my citations up against your Gish Gallop bullshit.
You are weirdly trying to have at me. Not sure why. I’m kinda done with it.
…again: I linked to:
The United Nations.
The International Court of Justice, and the submission by South Africa in their case on genocide.
Maryam Jamshidi, Associate Professor of Law at University of Colorado Law School.
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.
Raz Segal, Israeli historian, Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and Endowed Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University, who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies.
Can you be very specific here: which one is the asshat?
Which one is using hyperbole to be edgy and get a click? Was it the Israeli historian, Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies? Or the dozens of lawyers who painstakingly and rapidly prepared a case to the international court?
And not a single one of them looked at what is happening, right now, in Gaza. I have no issues with your cites. Your cites are perfectly fine.
But your cites do not support your argument.
I don’t know, perhaps it’s the genocide denial? The refusal to look at the evidence and then lying about evidence being presented? Or perhaps calling respected genocide scholars and some of the respected legal minds and humanitarian agencies “edgy” and using hyperbole for clicks?
And the fact that despite all of this,I just know next time someone brings up genocide here on these boards you will come up with the very same refutation: “it isn’t genocide because I say so.”
History is not going to be kind to people like you. When they study the history books and ask “how could they have let this genocide happen?” They will be talking about people ike you.
Your “kinda done with it” because you don’t want to address your complicity. Your denial. Don’t worry. You aren’t alone. I hope at least that makes you comfortable and sleep easier at night.
…just one more thing about this and i’ll stop. But here’s the thing, and it isn’t just about you. But there are plenty of people that in other forums and other threads if you mention genocide, the response is something along the lines of “yeah, it’s bad. But its not genocide.”
In those threads, most of the time it would be a hijack to address it. And I say this knowing full well this is a hijack (again, apologies to puzzlegal) but I’ve finally had a chance to address it and see “what you’ve got.”
And you’ve got nothing. Nothing at all. You don’t think its genocide because you don’t think it is.
I was expecting that you would have some basis to your belief. But it appears to just come down to vibes. “Israel isn’t doing that” even when shown cite after cite of Israel doing exactly that.
So next time it comes up in other threads, I’ll just reference this thread and move on.
Says the person who complained (more than once) that I didn’t read the provided links. 
I am amazed you can say this after this whole thread.
Me too.
…which one is the asshat?
The United Nations.
The International Court of Justice, and the submission by South Africa in their case on genocide.
Maryam Jamshidi, Associate Professor of Law at University of Colorado Law School.
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.
Raz Segal, Israeli historian, Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and Endowed Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University, who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies.
You didn’t read jack shit. Not if you think any of those links were " hyperbole to be edgy and get a click." Because if that were truly the case, you would have told me which one by now.
Do you agree that intent was addressed in the South African submission on page 59, section D, “Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials
and Others.”? I’m not asking if you agree with it. But you claimed that nobody had provided evidence of it in this thread, but I had.