What do I tell my son?

In My Humble Opinion
21

Perhaps, in the abstract. In the other thread in another part of the board. There’s a time and a place for everything. Using Heckity’s son’s girlfriend’s rape as a case study of lying whores who claim they’ve been raped just to destroy an innocent boy’s life is highly inappropriate. It’s solipsistic and unempathetic, bordering on sociopathic.

I know, why don’t you go give a speech entitled “He’s a loser and it’s all his own fucking fault and good riddance” at the funeral of a suicide or something? Make sure his mother hears all the “rational” questions you’d like to raise about it.

I mean, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you suggesting that Heckity should remind her son that his girlfriend is, statistically speaking, possibly a lying whore who deserved what she got, if she actually even got anything?

Seriously, what’s your goal here?

22

The point is though that FoieGras has already said he’s playing devil’s advocate. And if you want son to behave rationally, then you should be raising rational questions right?

The Duke case would be an excellent one to point out to him - not because we think that the girlfriend in this case is lying, or may be lying, or may be mistaken but because the whole reason we don’t have vigilante justice is because justice done in anger is not justice.

Mom needs to point out that son is only getting girl’s side of the story - and I would think that an argument based on “what if it didn’t go down as girl suggested?” is going to get a whole lot more traction than “rapist scumbag doesn’t deserve to be beaten” (because I don’t think you will get many people anywhere that would say rapist scumbag doesn’t deserve to be beaten)

23

Well, I think that a boy can believe his girlfriend’s story about being raped without having to go out and carry out vigilante justice on the rapist. I mean, you never know what happened, which is one reason why no one should go vigilante on someone’s ass. But your son can still be there for his girlfriend and encourage her to seek legal remedies.

24

Gotcha. Prioritize. First things first. First, make sure the son is aware that the rapist may be the victim here, because it happened on TV. Then later, deal with the rape victim.

Good thinking. You’re right, the very best time and place to “play devil’s advocate” (which is never, *ever *an euphemism for “be an insensitive dick”) is right in the middle of the worst part of the crisis.

Thanks for being so clearheaded, and keeping us all focused on what’s the very most important thing at this point in this situation. You’re a prince.

(Let us know, if you ever have a girlfriend or a sister or a mother who’s raped, how “playing devil’s advocate” works out for ya.)

25

No, mom is looking for ways to “convince” son not to go all vengenance is mine on the rapist, posing to him the question “what if you don’t know the full story” is one way of doing that.

This is no way precludes supporting the victim, being angry or being there for her.

And let’s hope that you, or anybody you know is never accused of something you didn’t do andd convicted based on one persons word alone - without any other fact checking, corroborating evidence or investigation.

There is another thread going on right now with a poor doper being accused of abusing someone at his workplace. Has been suspended without pay and must face an investigation, without even knowing the specifics of the accusation or who made it.

I’m not saying son has to put girlfriend on trial, merely suggesting that it may be helpful to point out to him that intentionally, or unintentionally he may not have the full story.

Oh - and just wanted to add, no none of my family has ever been raped or similiar, but I have personally faced false and malicious accusations - by people that were seemingly more trustworthy and due respect than me

26

I think people are saying that they want to deal with the alleged rape victim first. Just you know, make sure there was an actual rape and an actual victim.

Is it more important to find out what actually happened or to believe the first story we hear? (and im NOT saying she’s lieing or not, just that me, being all the way over in Australia and having never met anyone involved int he story, has just one side of a story)

(Let us know, if you ever have a friend, brother, father or son who is falsely accused of rape and how little you want to “play devils advocate” then.)

27

Let us know, if you ever have a friend, brother, father or son who is mistakenly accused of rape and how little you want to “play devils advocate” then

Perhaps mistakenly may be a better word to use? I don’t doubt that the girlfriend believes totally what she has said (or rather, I want to believe she believes it) - but we all know what alcohol (I’m assuming she was drinking if she was at a party) does to memory. We also further know, that things aren’t always what the seem - even if we do have first hand experience.

28

Right. And this is the thread, the time and place, for this debate. Gotcha.

29

Uhh, the thread is titled “What do i tell ym son?”
Some people are answering that question.

30

I see no problem with either word.
If she’s mistaken, he’s still been falsely accused.

31

Agreed - just wanted to draw a distinction in the intent of the lady involved. Falsely accused implies malice - which I didn’t want to impute onto her motivation. Mistakenly on the hand implies to me that she might genuinely believe it, but the person she is accusing may not have done what she thinks. (does that make any sense at all? )

32

Yes of course. And i guess since we’re discussing trom the point of the alleged victim we shouild give her the benefit of the doubt.

33

Well the questions concerning the validity of the case and so on are important, and those questions ought to be asked, I really doubt it is helpful to tell the son those. He is defintely emotional, upset and not rational because it is the one his love who is the victim, from his perspective. Imagine:

Father: ‘Son, before you go beat up that sorry excuse of a life who done that to your girlfriend we need to clarify a few things?’

Son: ‘Like what?’

Father: ‘Say, maybe she is crying wolf…’

Son: ‘Dad, WTFBBQ is wrong with you! She’s my GF!’

Father: ‘No, look there are cases where the girls cry foul and the rapists are just victim…’

Son: ‘Are you accusing GF of lying? Whose side are you on?’

Father: ‘Look, the truth is more important now, okay? I mean, are you sure about your GF? Maybe she was a party…and she just went wild…you know…’

Son: ‘Forget about bashing that guy. I think I am going to bash you and be done with it.’
Eh, not that it would actually how that will play out, but IMHO (this is the IMHO forum right?), the father now is not the one to get to the bottom of this mess, nor is telling the son all those things helpful, and how could you even raise all those points without straining relationships is beyond me (heck, I am not a consuellor, I admit my own limitations right here and now).

It’s the job of the investigators. The truth is important. But truths can hurt, and the son’s already hurting enough. So good intentions, bad idea. That’s my take.

34

What about if the discussion went more like this…

eh son, I think rapists deserve to rot in the fires of hell, but imagine how you would feel if you get it wrong and you beat up the wrong guy?

This is why I want to use “mistaken” instead of false - the girl may totally believe it, but it doesn’t mean the guy did what people think he did. I am sure the son has seen and been in situations before where appearances didn’t match reality - just put forth the possibility to him.

35

I guess the OP is the best judge as to whether it is right time, or even suitable to tell the son this (he may be an impulsive guy. Also bear in mind he has been dealing with stress from losing his mum). It depends on the personality of the son as well too. We all get worked up when we precieve our loved ones are in danger and has tunnel vision. Some people might consider that they might be wrong, but that’s always on hindsight. I mean, some people could be so senstitive that ‘you may get a wrong guy’ starts a whole chain of thought - ‘getting wrong guys means my GF is lying…or my GF is hiding something from me…’ which could lead to a trainwreck later on. Again, it depends on what type of fellow is the son is, and the father’s the best judge. I just don’t think it’s wise to get the young man’s imagination going now. Perhaps when he has cooled down and less emotional it would be a better time.

For me, I am sticking to ‘let’s don’t do anything rash first, let the investigators find out what went on’ might sounds more netural. But I think it is just far better to say, ‘Son, let those in the proper authorities determine what is to be done so things won’t go out of hand’.

36

Yeah, what a silly thing to say.

37

Very interesting perspectives and words of wisdom throughout - thank you. I will tell you the whole story in a moment - but I want to assure you that my son spent the day trying to make sense of what the g.f. was telling him from a logical perspective. The “other guy” had sent text messages to g.f. saying “Are you going to be okay?” and “Are you angry at me?” Son contacted the “other guy” and said he wanted to talk. The other guy said he wanted to talk too.

Small clarification - I am the son’s Mom, not Dad.

Here’s the whole story:

G.F. didn’t file a complaint, or go to the rape crisis centre.

Facts:
As it turns out it wasn’t a party the g.f. attended, rather a bar that she went to with 2 female friends. She’d had a couple of drinks before going to the bar.

At the bar one of her friends ran into a guy that she knew and the g.f. knows slightly. He ordered a pitcher of beer and proceeded to fill glasses for the three young ladies.

Fast forward, the four decide to head out. One female friend says goodbye and goes her own way. The g.f., female friend and guy, go to female friend’s home. The g.f. is not in good shape. On exiting the cab she falls on her face, scuffing her chin. The guy carries her into the house as she can’t walk.

G.F.'s Impressions:
At the bar she suddenly feels overwhelmed by something - she can’t recall whether she poured her own glass of beer or if guy poured it. Everything after that point is sketchy as she’s “sort of in and out of consciousness, but feels drugged”.

Facts:
At the house, the female friend left the guy and g.f. alone while she went off to do laundry for about 45 minutes. During that time the guy tried to force himself on g.f. She remembers him trying to kiss her and has hazy in and out recollections of shoving him off her and screaming at him to leave.

She can’t recall what happened to her so a) could it be that she was drugged? b) what happened during the time she was hazy?

I spent the best part of Monday talking with son and g.f. I pointed out that either the guy had remarkable timing with his evil plot; he had the female friend in on the ruse; or maybe nothing involving drugs or rape took place.

Had the guy planned to drug and rape her - he would have ensured they went somewhere alone - not back to a friend’s home.

I asked the g.f. if her clothes were in disarray when she ‘came to’. No. I asked the g.f. if there was any evidence of physical force (i.e. bruises, residual pain). No.

I pointed out that a rapist is unlikely to text someone asking if they’ll “be okay”; and generally don’t give a crap whether someone is angry with them. More likely she had far too much to drink (she’s a wee bit o’ a thing); and the guy did to. He saw a pretty girl and an opportunity and he gave it a shot. He asked if she’d be okay because she fell down after all so had to be pretty loaded - and asked if she was angry because he knew his advances were unwelcome. All-in-all a pretty stand up response from the guy.

To my son’s credit he didn’t track the guy down and punch his lights out or even threaten him per se. What he did do was text the guy and put him on notice. He told him the g.f. was “off limits” to the guy. He told him that there would be repercussions if he tried anything with g.f. again. I can live with that.

She totally overreacted. Son kept himself contained. Crisis averted.

I thing perhaps there is too much out there about drugged/rape instances so any young woman who drinks too much and passes out - goes “wtf happened?”.

38

It’s tough always being right. SUCK IT lissener!

Really? Because that is actually psycho talk. So what if this guy goes on an actual sober date with his girlfriend? Is he going to drive out there and ultimate fight him? I think maybe the next talk you need to have with your son is about how threats and violence is not how relationship problems get solved.

Quite frankly, the more you tell us about your son, the more I’m concerned that his girlfriend might be at risk for some sort of abuse.

39

Actually I’ve heard a lot of stories where, creepily, this does happen. Mostly because they’re not asking if you’re really okay but making sure that you’re not going to tell anyone/see what happened as rape.

40

Well, you know msmith537, I was trying to be equitable and give recognition to all who weighed in with an element of wisdom or guidance to my request for input. Your backhanded “take this, lissener” is very bad form. You’re always right? It must be hard to be you.

Notwithstanding, you are now speaking from a place where you have no knowledge whatsoever. My son has high levels of testosterone to be sure - he keeps himself in top shape and has interests in pugilism. He is also a man of great honour and ethics and is extremely bright. He takes his interest in competing physically with other men into an appropriate forum.

He has never, ever, been less than exemplary in his treatment of women. It is that very code that when violated made him angry. He wouldn’t dream of forcing himself on a woman. I would expect that should the g.f. decide to move on and have a “sober date” with the guy, that my son would know about it and move on. The g.f. is not his first. He’s licked the wounds of a broken heart before and undoubtedly will again.

So, psycho talk? Has he ever been in a fight in a bar, or on a street? No. When push came to shove he took an even-tempered look at the facts and saw that the situation had been over-blown. Given that the “guy” tried to force himself on the g.f. I think the caution from my son was most appropriate.

If you polled a number of men and asked them how they would react to the same situation - I imagine you would get a lot of similar responses to my son’s. I’m proud of him for keeping his responses in check and for demonstrating the depth of his commitment to the g.f.