What do you owe an old friend

In My Humble Opinion
1

In this season of addressing holiday greeting cards, I thought I’d ask your views concerning old friends from whom you have grown apart.

When Ms. D was a kid, she had a best friend. Lived down the block from each other. Regular sleepovers at each there’s houses throughout grade school. My wife even has her old blackboard, which has their initials on the 2 top corners - one would use one half while the other used the other. That kind of thing.

In high school, the friend we’ll call Cher, moved from Chi to Fla with her p’s. Though Ms. D and Cher stayed in touch, they were no longer as close, and their paths diverged in many ways. Cher dropped out of high school, while Ms. D completed law school. Ms. D got married, bought a house, and had 3 kids, whereas C worked as a janitor, and had 2 kids out of wedlock with a married guy who beat her and slept around. And the pregnancies were high risk due to her epilepsy. Our kids seem to be doing pretty well in school ans such. Cher’s kids are regularly in trouble in school.

The main contact between the 2 came when Cher would call a couple of times a year to cry over some new tragedy. Which would depress the hell out of Ms. D - as well as making her feel guilty about the fact that things were going so well for us. Really nice that those calls often came around holidays - just the time you need an extra dose of depression.

A couple of years back Cher moved back to Chi after her parents died. For a year or so she lived with her brother’s family. She couldn’t understand why her sister-in-law resented having 3 extra people in her small ranch home. Especially since Cher’s 2 boys are not the most well-behaved kids I have met.

Ms. D got together with Cher and her kids a few times. We’ve given her money, and we gave them a bunch of x-mas and birthday presents. Ms. D helped her look for subsidized 8 housing.

It developed that our kids really do not get along with Cher’s. I find myself not having much to talk to her about - and I don’t even have fond childhood memories of her.

The other day Cher stopped by unannounced just to say hi to Ms. D and “hang out.” Ms. D felt guilty about the fact that she wasn’t all that thrilled to see her. Seems Cher is doing better as of late. Working full-time at WalMart. Living in a 2 bedroom apartment.

Ms. D was planning on doing a bunch of errands that weren’t all that important, but really needed doing. She finally asked Cher if she wanted to come along. Then too late she realized one of the errands that had to be done was going to a furniture store and discussing the delivery of some furniture - the cost of which probably exceeds Cher’s annual salary. It kind of bothered Ms. D that she felt embarrassed or guilty about our buying some really nice furniture we had wanted for a long time (a bunch of Stickley dining room furniture - our x-mas present to each other).

Yeah - it might be really expensive stuff, but we are buying it largely because of the importance a dining room table plays in our daily family sitdown dinners, as well as our preferred social activity - having 2-6 people over for dinner, wine, and a night of conversation. That is where our family is at - and where we are comfortable. And we got ourselves to our present position where we can afford this - so I’m not willing to feel embarrassed about what might be viewed as an extravagant expenditure. It is getting delivered today I’m so excited!

If Ms D met Cher today, there is next to no chance that they would become close. So how do you handle something like that - an old friend from whom you have grown apart? Make no effort to call or see them, and just try to be pleasant when they call or drop by? Hope they get the message and stop calling? Say something directly? When they stop by, do you drop everything, or try to get rid of them?

Moreover, what do you think about the emotions involved? How much do you “owe” an old friend?

2

Um, can I just post saying I envy you getting the Stickley?

I have to think about the other stuff.

3

This is a very good question. I’ve never thought about it, as I’ve moved around a lot and have kept in touch with people I like and nobody else.

But then, I’m not that nice a guy, so if they started coming around, I wouldn’t even try to be pleasant.

As for “owing” old friends? Who can really say.

I had a friend in highy school who had plenty of cash and decided one day to buy me and my girlfriend a TV. I felt I “owed” him for quite a while. Then he slept with said girlfriend, so I figure we’re even.

4

Back in the late 1980s, we had a friend who was a very spoiled kid. He let us borrow his 1200 baud modem because he upgraded to a 2400. About a year later, I sold it for $75. He started asking for it and I emphatically said “I don’t have it”. Not an outright lie because at the time I didnt’ have it, I sold it. He never really asked me if I ever had it so I justified it that I didn’t lie. So I guess you could say I either owe him $75 or a 1200 baud modem. I didn’t feel guilty about it because he was obnoxiously rich and spoiled.

That helped finance me during baseball season since I couldn’t work and play at the same time.

5

Oblong, you stole from someone who was nice to you. If you needed the money, I bet he would have loaned you the lousy $75.

Breaking up with friends is harder than breaking up with lovers. There’s no easy way to do it IF your wife doesn’t want to remain friends with her. I have friends that are in a different financial situation than I am. I don’t care about the money, just the ability to get along with them.

I did have a girlfriend whose life became one dramatic clusterfuck after another. I finally told her (during an argument) that she shouldn’t call me anymore. We didn’t talk for years. Then she called me again and we’ve spoken a bit since, but it’s not the same as it was. It’s a lot easier if there’s a specific incident that can be the final straw. Otherwise, you’ll just have to make excuses until she gets the hint.

6

I say make no effort and be polite. Friendships go through different degrees of intensity over the years. A person can be your best friend when you are young, someone who annoys you when you are in your 30s and and your best friend again when you are 60. There is no need to have a big break up with a friend. Just let it drift apart naturally. Then you can always get back together if you want.

P.S. You don’t have to explain your furniture to us or anyone. It is your money and you only live once.

7

I guess what I’ve done is these situations is just act in the present and follow the lead of the old friend.

What I mean is, I am happy to be enthused during the phone call or the visit, while it’s happening, and match the old friend’s level of engagement at the time. But I don’t make firm promises for later, or initiate anything myself.

In a lot of cases, it seems that everyone is comfortable with this–that is, they didn’t want more than that anyway. Just because someone pops in to say hello doesn’t mean you need to move them up on the life priority list and rekindle a friendship that isn’t really there. Have a nice visit together, give the platitudes you usually do, and then let the thing drop until the next time they show up or call.

8

Yeah…imagine the nerve of that jerk…asking for his modem back.

Why do poor people think that they have the right to take what doesn’t belong to them just because someone else has more money?
As for what people “owe” an old friend:

Unless they saved your life in 'Nam or something you only owe the person what you expect to recieve from them in the relationship. Friends grow apart…that’s part of life.

9

I owe “Steve” a swift kick in the nuts. He turned out to be a real prick, even though we had been close friends for years.

10

“Cher” isn’t a friend, she’s just someone who shared a slice of your wife’s childhood. Memories of early days can be deceptive in emotional intensity. Everything is more vivid to kids because the whole world’s so huge and colorful. It takes age to appreciate tones and shades.

(I remember a close friend burbling, entranced by his new baby, “Maybe people take LSD to recall what the world seems like to him right now.”)

Seems to me friendships must have at least a thin glimmer of simpatico to qualify. Memories alone, even vivid memories of youth, can’t carry the load. It sounds like “Cher” and your wife–quite naturally–grew into people who lost that mutual connection years ago. Their different financial/life circumstances aren’t the problem, it’s lacking the intangible but real sense of connectedness beyond memories of past bonds.

There’s a lot to be said for listening to your gut; weighing and judging but at least listening. Friendship flows both ways. Maybe your wife and “Cher” have both been seduced by the past. But if your wife’s primary emotions are success-guilt and discomfort, that’s worth listening to. All long-term friends suffer the standard human ups-and-downs: financial, romantic, child rearing, etc. The essential, mutual connectedness pull most of us through the rough parts, sometimes with a few bumps along the way. Circumstances change; the actual connectedness (simpatico) of friendship lasts.

“It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swing”. Second-guessing from a comfy distance is easy, but IMO any relationship that makes your wife feel guilty about the person she’s grown to be doesn’t qualify as friendship. None of the duties–or delights–of friendship pertain.

Detaching probably won’t be easy, or even understood. (Explanation is almost certainly impossible.) But, however kindly meant, perpetuating an emotional lie ultimately damages all parties, by sheer sterility if nothing else.

A reluctant Cassandra,
Veb

11

Ummmm, from your post Dinsdale, I don’t see that your wife’s ‘old friend’ is displaying a problem, rather it seems that YOU are. Apart from gloating about how succesful you have been and how you regard her life as an utter waste (in your humble opinion), what is it that you are asking?

Are you saying that because she is poor and her kids are rotters that you don’t want anything to do with her? Or do you feel guilty that you have gone past her on the success scale, and for that reason you don’t want to associate with her?

Whatever…your post comes across as very presumptious and reeking of class prejudice. If you don’t LIKE the woman, then dissasociate from her. If you just feel uncomfortable because you are better off than she is, then maybe you’d better enquire into your own values and motivations before you write her off.

12

No one can make you “feel” anything without your full cooperation. If your wife is feeling guilty, she needs to take responsibility for it and get over it.

I have a good friend who has not been as fortunate as I have. We met under extraordinary circumatances. We were on a mental health unit. Usually there is a closeness that develops there which naturally fades once you return to life outside. But there is much about this friend that I admire and am grateful to have in my life. She has amazing courage, spunk and will-power. She cannot read or write, but she has a sense of humor and great love. There are no guilty feelings here just because I am financially better off. She has more street smarts than I do so our relationship is give and take. I’ve learned a lot from her. And I have been able to take pleasure in seeing how happy she is with some of the furniture and clothing we haven’t needed any more. So friendship is not about money or class.

But if there is no give and take in the relationship, then your wife needs to be a little bit more assertive about what she will and won’t do about her old friend. She should make it clear to her friend that she is not to just drop in. If she does it again, you wife should say, “I’m not seeing visitors today” and don’t let her in. Be firm.

At the same time, the kindness of listening to her friend on the phone at a convenient time isn’t that much to ask. But your wife needs to learn to distance herself enough not to become depressed herself.

Pay attention to your feelings. I’m with kambuckta on this one!

13

What ‘Cher’ is doing, however, is apparently only making contact when she’s having troubles in her life, and being rude enough to impose on people in her life - coming over to Dinsdale’s house unannounced, pushing her way into her sister’s home with 3 people. That gets old very, very fast.

A sister-in-law of mine does stuff like this - she calls when she’s drunk and overly emotional, or when she’s having a problem with her husband (who she’s now in the process of divorcing, but it’s been ‘in the process’ for a couple years), or when she needs something from us. If we didn’t pick up/were out, she’d leave rambling messages on the answering machine, calling back to continue - or often repeat everything she’d just said - when the machine cuts her off, to the point where she’d sometimes use up the answering machine’s limit of time. She shows up at family gatherings when she’ll get a present - Christmas, her birthday. We stopped letting ourselves be walked on by her. Night after night of phone calls where she or her husband would just bitch on the phone about the other person, and them ignoring our advice - get counseling because we’re not going to be able to help with this (said no), get the alcohol out of the house (also rejected outright) - we said “don’t call with this kind of problem, we already gave you advice and you don’t do anything about it.” It might sound cold but it got to the point where it was intrusive on our lives. It was not a give-and-take relationship, by any means.

It doesn’t sound like it’s gone that far in this case, though. I agree with Zoe - don’t let guilt push your wife into doing things if she feels there is no sharing of friendship from Cher. She needs to examine it, though. If the kids don’t get along, they aren’t and weren’t friends and don’t have to get together when the women do, if she decides that maybe there’s still something left in the friendship. If not, be polite and kind, and be firm about your personal limits, treating Cher the same as you would any acquaintance and not worse out of spite or better out of guilt.

14

I think that kambuckta was a bit harsh here. I don’t believe that The Dinsdale’s have problems with Cher because of the disparity in socioeconomic class. It’s more that that difference exacerbates the problems. If, perhaps, Cher was poor but more educated (self or formally), had polite well behaved kids and wasn’t a constant emotional wreck, this thread never would have been started. If Cher was wealthy but a druggy with hoodlem kids, we’d have a similar thread.

Cher is emotionally needy and, at this stage of life, doesn’t put anything into the relationship. It’s been this way for a while and Mrs. D wants to politey disengage. The next time she shows up at the door unannounced, you have to politely tell her that this is not a good time and that you’re in the middle of something. Since the families don’t get along, Mrs. D should see her for lunch every so often and leave it at that.

I can relate. Mrs. H and I are very comfortable for a couple in their late 30’s. Twelve years ago, when I got out of Grad School, all we had was a bunch of debt. Hard work got us here and I don’t feel guilty at all. Many of my long time friends are comfortable these days, a couple are self made multi-millionaires. Two of them are struggling financially, Marcy and Lila.

Lila is an artist. She is very talented and works her ass off. As with most artists, she doesn’t make much money. I love it when she comes to visit us. She is happy for my success and I love to hear about what is going on in her life. It’s a damn site more interesting than mine. The issue of difference in wealth doesn’t ever come up.

When Marcy and I met, we were both struggling students. She never finished college because there were more interesting things for her to do at the time like following the Grateful Dead (I just went to the local weekend shows) and going to alternative medicine/crystal power shows. She’s spent the last nine months on Disability, a questionable claim in my opinion. All she does is fuck off, spend money she doesn’t have and complain because her credit cards are maxed out. I can’t stand to be around her anymore.

Haj

15

I forgot about this thread but I’dl ike to offer a defense:

This kid was not only spoiled and rich, but also a jerk. Big time. He used to call me at home the day before a test and ask me to read off all of my notes to him. One time I was with a girlfrienda nd I told him that I won’t do that he said “Who do you think you are talking to?”

He would never have any money when we went out. Never said thank you when you’d do afavor…

anyway, I was only 16 or 17 at the time so I don’t reaally care about it now. I was a kid. I didn’t say it was right. So sue me. Like you’ve never done anything wrong before…

16

You’re mixing the issues.

If you don’t want Cher around, tell her the next time she stops by.

But, imho, you are being a little presumptions about how Cher feels about your recent furniture purchase. She may actually be happy for you, and may not want anything from you except your friendship.

17

A lot of this reminds me of what happened with my best friend from high school. We stayed in touch, although not always close touch, over the years. We would see each other at least every month or two and we exchanged birthday and Christmas cards and sometimes gifts, but we didn’t see each other on a day to day basis.

She seemed to get in touch when there were problems in her life. Sometimes this seemed natural and I was happy to help, especially when she had her first child and was having trouble breastfeeding. I’d been through it before, and that’s what friends are for. When she and her husband (another old friend from high school) started having problems, she’d call me to cry on my shoulder, and that seemed natural too. Then she started to call me to complain about how unfair it was that her latest employer had fired her (reading between the lines, she’d apparently continued some behavior from her wild teen days and had stolen from more than one employer). I still put up with her, because, really, that’s what friends are for.

She would come over and comment enviously about our lifestyle, which was not lavish by any stretch of the imagination. Because we were living in a small house while she lived in an apartment in a bad area, she seemed to have the impression that we were somehow rich (our mortgage payments were probably very close to what her rent payments were). It became apparent that she’d continued to use drugs that I’d quit doing after I became a responsible adult.

The final straw came as our children got to school age. Her son is two years younger than my older daugher, so it was natural for her to come to me for advice when he was ready to start school. She lived in an exceptionally bad school district, but her father and his wife lived within a few blocks of one of the best public schools in town. Her stepmother offered to watch her son in the mornings and go on record as his daycare provider so that he could attend the excellent school. She chose not to transfer him because it would have meant getting up twenty minutes earlier in the morning. It really galled me that she wouldn’t do something that small to improve her child’s education. After he spent one semester in the awful school, she called me to complain that he’d been sent home by the principal because he called his teacher a bitch. She blamed the teacher. The next time they visited, I noticed my children were reluctant to play with the kid. He grabbed toys, pushed them around, and used language I’ve never uttered in front of my kids. After that, I stopped returning her calls, and when we moved, I didn’t send her a change of address.

I think you owe a friend friendship, but you have to decide who is and isn’t still a friend.

18

I love how some of you fucks chose to focus primarily on our recent x-mas gift to each other - to mold from your ignorance some idea of “class guilt” on my part.

Decorating our home right now - inside and out - is something very important to us. You also convenietly overlooked the reason a dining set is significant to us - where we share family time and conversation with family and friends. And the furniture was delievered last week and WE LOVE IT, and loved the dinner party we had to christen it with 4 of our best friends.

My dad used to say, “Some people make their own luck.” And Cher has consistently chosen to make bad choice after bad choice. Not only does she call up my wife to cry and seek advice, but then she consistently disregards that advice, and thn comes back to whine about the results. I have no tolerance for this.

Cher was never my friend. Tho I have spent a considerable amount of time with her over the years, she has never impressed me as having anything to say that would be of interest to me. She simply does not strike me as very intelligent, or very interesting. Sue me, if my personal peference strikes you as necessarily reflecting feelings of superiority.

You want to consider me a snob, then consider me an intellectual snob. Tho I do not require that my friends have advanced education, I do insist that they think about and have something to say about something I can find interesting. If that strikes you as unreasonable, feel free to arrange your life otherwise.

As hajario suggested, I would consider Cher to be just as worthless if she had 10 times my annual income and net worth. I certainly have chosen not to associate with many many people far more wealthy than myself - and am unaware of basing any social relationships on a person’s furniture preferences. And if you think I am incredibly wealthy, I suggest you may overestimate a government employee’s salary. In fact, I chose to leave private practice for my current position, with the pay cut, to give me more free time and a more flexible schedule to spend with my family. Oh yeah, that’s also why we money grubbing materialists chose to have my wife quit her job - which paid better than mine at the time - to stay home with the kids. (Not out of gender assigned roles either, but out of a decision that she would make the better stay-home parent.)

So I don’t associate with her. I would be very happy to never hear or think of Cher again. But I do not have that luxury. She keeps interjecting herself into my wife’s life, and her mind. And I see no positive results from that interchange, but significant negative. My wife is variously depressed and angry after their interactions.

What is important to us is friends and family. We have 3 beautiful chidren. Our kids’ education - both scholastic and social - is very important to us. We stress that they be successful in school, experience and embrace other cultural, literary, and historical experiences, and learn how to develop and be good friends. I do not see Cher - as she presently exists - the result of cumulative bad choices she has made over a course of decades, playing a part in the direction we have chosen to aim our lives.

With apologies to the mods if this oversteps the bounds of IMHO, I just wanted to express my humble but honest opinion and wish kambuckta a hearty Fuck you, you presumptuous judgmental prick!

19

Dinsdale, you have nothing to feel guilty about. You made choices to get to where you are. Your wife made choices to get to where she is. Cher made choices to get where she is. It’s not luck, it’s choices.

That said, I think your wife needs to be “busy” when Cher calls. This woman is not a friend, she is a leech. And since the relationship with Cher upsets your wife, Mrs. D needs to end the relationship.

If she needs help, then perhaps you can answer the phone or screen your calls. If Cher drops by for a visit, “Sorry, this is not a good time.”

Mrs. D needs to get a backbone. I’m not saying she’s not a strong woman, but it sounds like she doesn’t want to hurt Cher because they were childhood friends. The keyword here is “childhood.” People change, grow, drift apart. They are not 10 anymore.

For your peace of mind and your wife’s, Cher needs to be shown the door until she shapes up.

20

Thanks, ivy.

It’s hard, tho, trying to - uh - convince your spouse to do something like this, without coming out with an ultimatum - a tactic that has never had a place in our relationship.

I see my goal primarily as being as supportive of my wife and family (and myself) as I can be, and helping us weigh myriad choices, material and otherwise. But (with differing degrees for kids and spouse and situation dependent) I cannot (nor should I) make every decision for everyone else. Nor can they for me. Moreover, tho I hope their decisions factor in the impact on me, I cannot expect my interests to dictate their choices.

Tough when someone you don’t personally have any affection for has what you consider a negative impact on your family. I don’t know about the rest of you, but it seems like a pretty large part of my existence consists of minimizing/defending against such negative influences. Makes it all the more frustrating when one such negative is so clearly identifiable, yet you are unable to vanquish it. But the complex and lengthy past, and her humanness blur the black and white.

Thanks again. And again, my apologies to the mods - and I guess to kambuckta. I shouldn’t go posting something I have strong feelings about on a public message board, if I am going to be upset with people expressing views I disfavor and disagree with.