When the person you ask on a date bends down (she was on a front porch and I was on the ground), pats you on the head, and declares “your’re so cute,” you tend not to ask why your invitation was declined.
Wish I’d been able to read stuff like this back when I was young, from late middle school through high school. I would go on dates, be uncomfortable or unattracted for one reason or another, and if they called me up again to go out, I just didn’t know how to say, ‘not interested’. I didn’t want to hurt their feelings! even if I didn’t like them. So the misery cycle would repeat. Finally, I got my mom to function as my answering service - the phone would ring, I knew it would be some guy I didn’t want to see calling me, and I’d hiss “I’m not here, I’m not here!” and so mom would answer and blah blah.
(italics mine)
But by far the most common outcome is person A thinks there’s no spark, while Person B thinks there is, or is so clueless that he (occasionally she) wouldn’t recognize a spark or a non-spark if it hit them between the eyes.
And it’s those clueless folks who ask the questions. Because they honestly can’t tell.
At the extreme are the *really *socially clueless. Their ability to parse relationships comes down to “She ran screaming from the room” vs. “she did not run screaming from the room”. And everything from a casual aquantance to a life long Love for the Ages fits in that second undifferentiable category. They simply have no better emotional accuity than that.
“You’re not my type.”
and, when attached (and sometimes when not, but you are getting that whole “creepy desperate vibe” from what is functionally a random stranger) “I’m seeing someone.”
(I’ve told this before. I was engaged and living with someone and got a phone call from a guy I knew asking me out. I said “I’m engaged and living with my fiancee” His response “is it serious?” Truly, some people ARE clueless.)
Fair enough on the first part. And since it looks like there is a bit of confusion, I think only once or twice have I ever asked a girl on a date relatively cold; I’ve either already known her or made an attempt to get to know her first. Obviously, if I approached a woman in a bar and she rejected me, I wouldn’t ask why, because there isn’t anything to be gained.
The reason I find it useful is because it is usually after at least a few hours of conversation, often after even a couple dates, and after having seen what I perceived as clear signals. Obviously, either I mis-perceived the signals, which is something I can clearly learn from, or she perceived some aspects of my personality to be different at first than they actually were, from which I can also learn because I can be more aware of what I’m putting out there and whether or not it is consistent with who I am.
I agree with the latter part here. If it’s a misperception of personality, it’s understandable. I do still believe that things can be messed up though in a way from which they can be learned, particularly with non-verbal cues. I, for instance, am generally very good at picking them up when directed toward others, but for a long time, was terrible at picking them up when directed toward myself.
In fact, as an amusing anecdote, I remember I had a gathering at my house for a sporting event and had a number of friends over. When one of the girls arrived, I noticed that she seemed a little dressed up for the occassion, but didn’t think anything else of it. After she left, my brothers pulled me aside and berated me for toying with her. She had been hanging all over me, and had gotten dressed up to try to get my attention, and they thought I was being a dick and ignoring her, when, in fact, I was completely oblivious the entire time.
Another situation that more directly illustrates my point, I had dated a girl a couple times and spent a fair bit of time talking to her too, and felt things were going well, when she told me, to my surprise, that she wasn’t interested anymore. When I asked her about why, she outline the cues that I’d missed, and she’d interpretted that as my being shy or uninterested, when I simply didn’t pick them up. Thereafter, I’ve been more conscious and picked up on similar cues since then that I otherwise would have missed without that.
The lesson here, to me, is that missing cues isn’t an aspect of my personality, it was simply a lack of experience in the dating. Particularly considering that most of my relationships up to the point of the latter example were women that heavily pursued me, and were quite assertive, so the need to read cues effectively wasn’t something I had developed.
I agree with criticism on personality. That’s not the sort of response I am looking for when I’ve asked. If I’m too assertive or too shy or to loquacious or too quiet or whatever, that’s not something that’s wrong with me, it’s just who I am, and if she’s not interested because she originally thought I was extroverted then, after spending some time with me, found out I wasn’t, that’s understandable. But at the same time, learning about those perceptions helps me understand how my behavior is perceived, and it also helps me understand what cues I may be sending myself. I can now be more conscious about those signals.
For example, when I’ve made plans for dates, very seldom do I simply say something akin to meet me at a certain place at a certain time; instead, I would try to reach a decision that works well for both of us and, if I’m more available than her, I’d be happy to accomodate her schedule. However, the way that I had used to do this was apparently coming off as very wishy-washy, indecisive, passive, or whatever, which isn’t who I am at all. After being aware of that, just a little bit more attention to how those discussions go and, and I’ve found that I don’t come across like that anymore.
The thing is, people who knew me were familiar with the sorts of cues that I would give off that differentiate between those sorts of things. For people that don’t know me very well, after being aware of the signals I was sending, it really wasn’t a surprise that my motivation was being misinterpretted.
Thanks for helping us make the point that guys who ask the “Why don’t you want to date me” question are just looking to browbeat you into capitulation.
The simple fact that someone “needs” a reason for being turned down IS the reason for turning such a person down. The simple fact is that such a person is clueless, and giving any reason is just a means for such a person to systematically argue why your reason(s) are invalid and how you “should” accept the date. Should? Did I mention something about clueless? Dates are logical, reasoned approaches to social interaction involving risk/benefit ratios?
The story is told about Babe Ruth being the home run king, but he was also the strike out king. He swung at everything. In the process he learned what worked better and what didn’t work so well. He sure didn’t ask the ball why it rejected his offer of the bat. And then, there’s some people who just shouldn’t bother with baseball, which is why golf was invented, so some people could just play with themselves.
I think you are confusing “woman I ask out on a date” with “professional life coach.” Yes, this sort of feedback can be really helpful - if its honest and taken in the right spirit. But its exceedingly awkward to give this feedback and its seldom honest, and when honest, seldom well received. And the simple act of asking for this feedback is stating that you have an unreasonable expectation about what you expect this person to do for you - they may come though, but the expectation is a little like asking a stranger for $20.
Nope. As a PUA I obviously have to disagree with this part even if you’re just joking. Understanding social dynamics is a skill that is learned, not something you’re doomed to either have or not have. And I applaud Blaster Master’s efforts at improving himself and understanding he simply lacked experience and isn’t a skeevy creeper who should give up and play golf.
Also the attitude of “he should just know” is why there are so many socially inept men out there. They’re terrified of asking if they did something wrong. This isn’t to say lots of then aren’t creepers or that it’s any responsibility of a girl’s to give the guys an explanation, I’m just stating an observation.
- TWTTWN
It depends, I suppose. If it was something they could do something about, and would be willing to, and they’re just genuinely clueless, then I might tactfully explain that they might have better luck if they showered more often, or something. If I don’t think they’d be open to changing, I wouldn’t bother.
If I’m turning them down because there’s just no chemistry, even though I like them as a person, I’ll say that. Similarly if the reason is practical – I don’t do long-distance relationships, I don’t think office relationships are a good idea, etc. Non-personal reasons that can’t be tortured into being “blame” for something, I have no problems being open about.
If I’m turning them down because they’re rude, controlling, obsequious, or otherwise actually turn me OFF, I’d just say that we’re not a good match. It takes a lot to turn me off, it’s often something that someone would take badly, and in most cases involves a personality that would create a huge drama-fest if I said anything, even tactfully. I’m not going to waste time or energy on such a person.
I did have an instance where I was honest about the turn-off: I told him that I didn’t appreciate being told that I was handling my career “wrong” when he had absolutely no knowledge of my industry. He said, “Oh, okay. I’ll stop. You’re still doing it wrong, you should do it like this…” Which is where I told him I was calling it, we’re clearly not compatible, and wished him luck. He was confused. :rolleyes:
I wouldn’t lie, though. No reason to.
I agree that it’s unreasonable in some contexts, but I also think it’s not unreasonable in others. If I ask out someone after a brief conversation and she turns me down, yes, it is unreasonable and probably nothing that her response would offer to be gained. When this has happened, I’ve never done anything other than wish her well, and carry on. However, if I’ve spent a several hours talking to someone, even taken her out on a date or two, and then she says she’s not interested, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable request if the reason isn’t obvious, particularly since she can simply say no. The only way I could see it being unreasonable is if the no isn’t respected because a direct answer is demanded.
There’s no harm in asking, and there’s no harm in telling or, if you don’t want to, not telling. Personally, when I’ve been asked, just because I’m not interested in that person doesn’t mean I am unwilling to be helpful. Hell, I’ve spent more time helping perfect strangers with more than a simple 30s explanation to someone I’ve likely spent a minimum of several hours at least conversing with.
I also feel like the asking for $20 from a stranger isn’t a very good analogy. That’s literally costing the person $20 for helping that stranger out. To me, it’s a lot more like an elderly person in the grocery store asking for help putting the heavy bag of dog food in the cart for them. That is, it costs me absolutely nothing to help them out, other than a few seconds of my time, and yet it is helpful to them. Is that an unreasonable request? Maybe I hurt my back can I can’t lift anything heavy. There’s nothing that stops either person in either case from simply saying no.
I have to say though, this really seems bizarre to me that so many people seem to assume the worst possible motivations for people asking these questions. I have little doubt that many, perhaps even most, of the people who ask these questions aren’t doing it for the same reasons I have in the past. I guess, all I’m really trying to say is to just not flat assume that, and try to judge the person’s intentions and respond accordingly. If the person is a creep, by all means, don’t bother ellaborating. If you think it’s a sincere request and you’re comfortable, then I don’t see a reason not to.
We are shaped by our experiences. If you’ve had good feelings and results from this sort of interaction, you think of it as harmless and worth a shot. If you haven’t, you probably won’t.
And women probably deal with it much more often than men do.
Actually pretty good considering the conventional wisdom. It’s quite likely that none of their previous dates ever clued them in.
Not that I blame the dates – if I thought there was any chance that being honest could be taken as an opening to argue me into dating them, I’d remain oblique, too. “I just don’t feel any chemistry” is always true in those circumstances, even when there are a number of unmentioned reasons why it’s true.
Still, asking a woman for a date does not require any justification on her part for her rejection. Is it the way you asked? Is it something about yourself that you need to fix? Hell, let’s get down to the mysogenic and suggest that it’s nothing more than her time of the month and you just don’t appeal to her at this very moment. You could ask her again in a week and get a totally different answer. Or not. But the answer you might get next week would be totally different than the reason you get this week. Why? Again, because she owes you nothing. Maybe her reason for rejection has nothing to do with anything you could possibly fix, so what’s the point of finding out?
And, of course, a guy can’t possibly be expected to Just Know. He does have to learn. But it’s never going to happen by asking why he was just shot down in flames. He has to learn by other means, and THAT’S why so many guys remain social rejects. They want to learn their OWN way, and if it’s not available, then it’s just women being mean, nasty, and selfish. Dare I say, “bitchy”?
Women talk to guys all the time. They tell them everything. What they’re looking for, what turns them on, or off, what grabs their fascination, what holds it, I mean everything. Okay, they aren’t telling you, specifically. And sometimes it’s not so much in words, although most of the time it is. You just listen to what they’re saying to each other, to other guys, or just the women who do talk to you but you haven’t asked out.
The problem is, women don’t know what they want at any given moment. So you have to distill it, start to discover what the common elements are. Yeah, it’s slow, it’s tedious, it takes a long time. To learn, anyway. But it does get to the point where you can get pretty talented at it. But most guys suffer rejection and shut down. Give up. And not learn. Because they’re not getting what they wanted. Believe me, listen to the women and learn to distill what they’re telling you, and they’ll give you what you want, and more than you’d ever hoped for.
But the first thing to learn, Grasshopper, is HOW to learn. And it ain’t by asking them WHY when they shoot you down. There is no failure in trying; there is only failure in not trying again. Learn from your encounters. By the way, as a guy who’s not particularly good looking nor rich, trust me when I say I HAD to learn. I may not be a home run king, but there’s no end to the amount of playing time I enjoy.
Can you not see why this could put someone on the defensive, though? No matter how nicely you put it, asking them to clarify their signals implies that they led you on or miscommunicated in some way, either intentionally and unintentionally.
In your desire to “learn”, you’re ignoring the difficult position the other person is in by now having to explain their lack of interest in you.
You’d be better off talking to a friend or someone else about this. Prying it out of someone who just rejected you is a good way to come across as a “nice guy”.
I have had several situations where a complete honest reply dramatically changed some of my dating behaviors for the better. Since then I always ask, along with the caveat that “I am not going to try to save this, I just want to learn something from it so I dont make the same mistake again”.
I think I am a far better person from the result of those answers.
I imagine my experiences are probably pretty atypical, but then again, I’ve only asked couple times that I recall, and each was after it was clearly good then something obviously went wrong, and they didn’t seem to have issue being straight with me. In fact, in one specific case, the girl came straight out and said something akin to “I don’t think we’re a good match because…”; I never even had to ask.
I really want to emphasize that first point. I made the same mistake several times when I was in my teens, but none ever told me, nor did I ask them. It wasn’t until I finally asked that it was pointed out and I realized that I had made that mistake several times in the past as well.
She doesn’t know how you’ll respond to your answer, and if her experiences are like mine, she has a good reason to suspect that her answer won’t be respected. So yeah, it’s unreasonable to request this information. The reason is obvious, just not to you.
You’re stepping into someone’s private boundaries by asking them “why”. It’s like going up to someone and asking them how much money they make. The rudeness is still there even though they are free to ignore you.
You’re really focused on how things benefit you, without considering how this behavior makes you come across to others. What you want out of the exchange is and should be irrelevant; you seem oblivious to this basic thing.
Let me ask you this: Do you want people to see you as needing a life coach?
That seems reasonable because it’s taking a little pressure of the girl.
I think it’s also fine to phrase it as a request, as in, “If you don’t mind my asking” but I like your idea.
Agreed, that’s what my quote said. It’s not her job to write up a point-form list or even know WHY she isn’t into it, so I do sympathize with women when they run into guys who think that. Plus they run into the situation of having to turn guys down WAY more than the average guy does so understandably it’s annoying to them.
Unfortunately women give bad advice and tend not to understand what they’re actually attracted to, so a guy listens to them saying they want flowers and a guy to treat them like a princess because they’re answering logically, but then the guy tries that and the girls go “oh no, not ANOTHER one…” and run off with the asshole who does the opposite of everything she said. 
Agreed. It would help things a lot if women were self-aware enough to acknowledge this instead of speaking with authority and scolding guys like they’re fucking children, with stuff like “What you want out of the exchange is and should be irrelevant; you seem oblivious to this basic thing.” and making them feel like dickheads for not understanding confusing women-logic…but then it would also be nice to play for the NBA and get paid in candy.
Quoted as an example. Odds are if someone asked those same girls “Do you want a guy who demands you meet him at a place and time of his choosing? And when you told him no he persisted?” those same girls that called him wishy-washy would go “NO! He should take my feelings into consideration! That’s what REAL gentlemen do.” So Blaster treats them with respect and tries to reach a mutually satisfyinc, accomodating choice…and then is not only rejected but then shat upon for being “oblivious” and not understanding what he did wrong or daring to be curious what he did wrong. No wonder he’d be confused at the time!
Attraction is very confusing for men in modern society. Part of a man asking why he was turned down for a date is that he was told A + B + C = D by girls, his mom, movies, etc. and he did A + B + C but it equalled F AND on top of it equalling F, HE’S suddenly a creepy asshole. And he’s like “?? wait what? but? wtf did I do wrong??”
A lot of them don’t handle asking the question or hearing the answer well, however, and I’m not defending those guys. I’m just explaining WHY they do the things they do.
- TWTTWN