This is where interracial marriages throw us a curve. I knew a girl who dated a guy who was half black. So I told her that once you go half-black you can never go half-back. It can be Quarterback, Fullback, Tailback, even a kicker. But in no way, shape or form can you ever date a college or pro Half-back.
Well, part of what he’s misunderstanding is that what you’re describing above is what girls say they want men to DO, (or not do). It’s not that women are confused about what they want, they just may not define it very well, or men who hear it are misunderstanding it.
Girls DO want men who send flowers, are considerate regarding how he speaks to them and so on. But that’s not describing the qualities and characteristics and CHEMISTRY she wants, that’s merely describing what she likes a man to do.
If the right man does those things, it’s wonderful, but if it’s it’s not the right man, it’s not the man with “the Click”, there’s nothing on earth a “nice” guy can do that will make it right.
But for some reason men get hung up on “but I’m a NICE guy, I am not abusive, I am romantic and send flowers and am considerate etc”. And then when he gets turned down, THOSE are the things he hangs his hat on. That is, “women always SAY they want these things, but they really don’t, they don’t know what they want”.
Those men who get “confused,” it’s because they often stop listening after “girls like flowers and romance” and then don’t get it when doing all the romantic things doesn’t work, when really the problem is that they aren’t taking chemistry into consideration (or are refusing to because they “deserve to have a girl” because they’re nice guys).
I see you are a new poster, so you are perhaps unfamiliar with our tradition of providing citations to support our claims.
I personally would not refer someone to that list to learn why I had turned them down for a date, in part because I would be ashamed to be associated with anything so badly written. Much of it is also, frankly, ridiculous. This “Tyler Durden” comes across more as a pathetic creep who’s prone to magical thinking than a guy who’s really smooth with the ladies.
Unfortunately, that often gets an “I’ll wait.”
A married friend told me, “In an effort to not hurt them, you actually hurt them. The “it’s not you, it’s me” routine will give them false hope (slight as it may seem) and they will turn this (and you) into a mission. You gotta be respectful, succinct, tactful, but direct. If not they’ll hang around in one fashion or another.”
IME, she was right on.
Haven’t read the list; probably should, out of curiosity sake, but at this point, it’s no longer important to me. At this point, the success stories are so numerable that it’s just bragging. The failure stories are actually more amusing.
One night I was at a bar when I started talking to this one woman. It developed to the point where she was sitting at my table, and I was buying her bottles of beer. (I was drinking vodka.) Then, at one point, she excused herself. I thought she’d gone to the ladies’ room, but after nearly a half hour, I figured she bailed on me. No big. Pleasant company while it lasted. Meanwhile, here’s 2/3 of a bottle of beer getting warm on the table. So in between my vodkas, I killed off the beer.
45 minutes after she’d left, she reappeared at my table. Apparently, she’d gone home to chase off her roommate so we could have privacy for the night. And then… And THEN… She saw the empty bottle of beer. I drank HER bottle of beer! (Mind you, one of the bottles I’d been paying for.) The solution was simple; let me get you a fresh one.
Nothing doing! How DARE I drink HER bottle of beer? And think I could just replace it, like THAT? And she stormed off. It’s been a lot of years, and I still have no clue. Probably just as well. Personally I felt more sorry for her poor roommate getting chased out; what kind of person would do that to someone? Still, that’s what makes war stories fun to tell.
I told someone who chatted with me repeatedly on AOL (Way back when they had chat rooms…do those even exist anymore?) that I thought he was clingy, co-dependent, too young for me and I had no interest in going out with him.
We’ve now been together 10 years.
Oh yes. My one time of attempting to break up with someone gently and easily (hey, I was young and stupid and trying to spare his feelings), I had to break up with him three times before he got it. The last time I finally just threw up my hands and told him bluntly. I had to actually spell out for him that the definition of breaking up meant that we no longer had sex together. Somehow it didn’t occur to him that breaking up with him meant I’d be looking for (an actual relationship with) someone else. That didn’t go over well. 
I was half expecting a date rape drug in there.
If there were, then I really got screwed. No, wait, let me rephrase that…
Right. Girls want men they’re ATTRACTED to to send flowers, be considerate, etc. That’s the key nuance that guys don’t get and that girls don’t stress when they give advice, and generally no one (male or female) has advice on how to build chemistry because we just attribute it to magic “it’s there or it isn’t” so there’s this blank gap of seduction right at the start that guys are trying to use advice-for-down-the-road in. All that stuff is awesome once you’re actually dating, but having a crush on a girl doesn’t mean you’re dating, orbiting around a girl for years in the friend zone hoping she picks you eventually doesn’t mean you’re dating, chatting with her at the bar or even going for coffee doesn’t mean you’re dating. But guys do relationshippy stuff before there’s actually a relationship where the girl is fully attracted to them and blow themselves out.
The 25 Points I linked are a way of fixing your body language and basic social skills to present yourself in a more attractive fashion so that “the click” is more likely to be there. If a guy who talks too fast, qualifies himself too much, fidgets with his hands too much, doesn’t blink, etc. fixes those things he’s going to come across a lot better…thus, the list helps point those things out.
One PUA set a camera up in his room and videotaped himself going through his daily routine and realized he had super creepy/weird body language and hearing his own voice made him realize his voice sounds super nerdy and rapport-seeking. He had no idea the vibe he was giving off was all fucked up and akward. If someone had pointed that stuff out to him sooner (like someone who turns him down for a date, or if he was linked to that 25 Points list), it’d’ve made a world of difference.
Nah, I’ve lurked here for years. But there are no scientific journal cites for pickup stuff because 1) the concept/technology is very new, most of the major breakthroughs were just figured out in the early 2000s and are still being revised these days, 2) the way to test it is to go out and start up thousands and thousands of conversations with strangers which is very time consuming and involves a lot of rejection at the start which I don’t imagine is something a scientist with a wife and kids is going to be able to do, PUAs do it regularly but we aren’t scientists who try to get this stuff published because we know that 3) the concept is so socially unacceptable (as evidenced by the instant negative responses most people give PUA stuff) that it would take a pretty brave scientist to put his name to “I went out and regularly fucked a bunch of married chicks and these are the consistent reasons why the techniques I’m using work.”
I’d imagine that as pickup techniques become more a part of mainstream dating advice and less controversial, “actual” studies will be done. Already a lot of PUA concepts have worked their way into dating advice columns and TV shows and such. But that probably won’t be for years.
There are a jillion cites in the form of Field Reports (thousands of PUAs over the past 10+ years describing and breaking down their interactions from each night they go out), but I figure that would just get a “those are all lies, thousands of guys are just making up stories every night for years and years for some reason I can’t think of it but I don’t believe in this even though I haven’t gone out and tried it myself so it must be lies” response.
The writing is bad, but it was written by a cocky guy in his early 20s in a really emotional state. If you actually read the points though, most of them are just common sense that if you read them written out more professionally on Plenty Of Fish you’d go “oh, ya, it makes sense to speak loudly and clearly because that shows that I’m confident. And I guess it WOULD seem desperate to put up with behavior from a hot girl that I wouldn’t put up with from an ugly girl or male friend.”
The guy went from 0 dates until his early 20s to 100+ lays in a year, dating multiple random women every week. And his story isn’t uncommon for PUAs. When I started studying pickup I went from sex with 1 girl in my entire life (I was 23 at the time) to sex with 20 different girls that first SUMMER, and that’s not including the random BJs and fooling around, random making out, tons of dates, etc.
The lifestyle isn’t for everyone, but how icky you find the people involved in it doesn’t discount the fact that the 25 Points makes a dramatic difference in how attractive a guy is to women. Try doing everything in that list wrong and see how people react to you haha
haha agreed. I would have drank the beer too.
This “It’s real, science just chooses to ignore it!” stuff is what people resort to when they’re trying to justify their belief in total bullshit. Nothing you’ve said here is a barrier to research. There’s been all kinds of scholarly work done on dating and sexual behavior.
No, even if it were better written I still would not refer people to that list for an explanation of why I refused to date them. Well, at least not in the sense that you intended. Some of the tips seem like sufficient reason to turn someone down, so it might have some use as a “What not to do” guide.
This isn’t to say that every single item on the list is bad, the advice about “TAKING TOO MANY SENTENCES TO STATE AN IDEA THAT COULD BE STATED IN LESS SPACE” is something you might want to think about yourself, but it’s a very mixed bag. Speaking only for myself here, I have never turned anyone down for a date because of the direction their feet were pointing. I have also never refused a date because someone made the mistake of complimenting my necklace, or because when I said “Hey, I’ve got to use the bathroom, could you wait for me?” they actually did just that.
You’re very good at making unsupported claims. Are you actually this gullible, or do you just hope that others are?
Yes, that sounds like the sort of story a self-described pickup artist would tell. I don’t see what it has to do with the question of how much explanation one should give when turning someone down for a date, but congratulations on managing to work in some sexual boasting even when it wasn’t relevant.
In answer to the OP’s question, unless someone is already a close friend before they ask me out then I don’t think they’re entitled to anything more than a polite refusal. Even in the unlikely event that they are genuinely curious and not trying to get me to change my mind, my complete and honest answer is unlikely to be helpful. I’m also not inclined to spend my time giving people free counseling sessions. As others have said, they should have friends they can ask for advice.
Yeah, I think this nails it.
What do you say to someone who wants to know why they were turned down for a date?
Braaaackkkk! Burp, burp, splort.
Works every time.
I’ve
a) read the game
b) knows who tyler durden is
and
c) wondered what took so long for a “PUA” to be posting here.
i have tons of questions (well… more like snarky insulting questions but questions nonetheless) for TWTTWN.
however, as to the OP? i think it would save everyone a lot of hassle and heartache if both men and women were just brutally honest in their rejection. i mean, on some level, deep down, we allknow why we’ve been rejected. not the other person’s physical cup of tea, awkward, too wild/drunk, not wild/drunk enough, hate my friends, doesn’t make enough money, etc. but as humans, we’re really good at lying to ourselves. a healthy dose of reality at the expense of a “friendship” is well worth it in my opinion.
also, an illogical answer is as good as a logical one. if someone said “well, you didn’t go to a prep school and i like to date prep school guys” then you know the chick is batshit shallow and you’ll have knocked her down that flawless pedestal you’ve put her on. if someone said “well, i just don’t find you attractive enough” you know to either hit the gym, or try to find a girl who finds your body/face type more to their liking. really i have no problem with either asking for the truth (but it has to be earnest datamining. not an excuse to stick your foot in the door) or giving the truth (brutal only. save the BS for christmas when your parents get you a sweater instead of ca$h).
Still haven’t read it, but getting curiouser. Body language is everything. Well, okay, not everything, but it overcomes a lot of stuff that gets in the way. But you don’t really “learn” it. It’s a function of personality; you develop it. But you can’t really fake it, any more than you can fake a speaking language that you don’t know.
Ah, hell, I have to even qualify that. Knowing a smattering of a number of languages, I could fake them, but it wouldn’t be long before everyone knew I was faking it. But body language is what everybody reads, whether or not they’re aware of it. Like the night I walked past a couple muggers on 42nd St and one of them muttered, “Cool it, man, he’s a cop.” No I’m not, never have been, in any imaginable capacity. But I do teach martial arts.
Actually, an illogical answer is just a worthless as a logical one. The simple fact that she rejected me is good enough that I don’t want to pursue her, regardless of her reasons. Years ago, my wife made the comment (obviously while we were still single) that there were more guys waiting for her than there were women waiting for me.
And she was right. There’s always more guys waiting for women than there are women waiting for men. Why? Who knows. I don’t care. Because my answer to her was, “You’re right, but even if not as many, there’s still some that are, and that’s good enough.”
Because, really, as a guy, all you can do is let women know that you’re available. After that, it’s up to them to give the signs. My wife and I watched a couple in a restaurant one night, she was doing everything but a freaking table dance for him. She’d lean into all of his talking, she’d touch his arm, she’d hold his gaze while he talked, I mean, screaming. And he was oblivious. I mean, I wondered why he bothered having dinner with her if he was that disinterested. And my wife pointed out, no, he’s clueless. Either way, I’m certain the date was a disappointment for her.
I’m not sure what a PUA is, but I’m assuming it’s PickUp Artist. If the goal is a competition to maximize the number of dates, I’m afraid I’m useless here. There was one guy who was damned good looking, no doubt about it. And we were arguing about women. His Absolute Rebuttal was, “Oh, yeah? How many women can YOU pick up in a night?” And my answer was, “How many times do you get called for a second time?”
I’m aware of that.
And down the road when people are less hostile to the notions that you can seduce a woman from her boyfriend/husband on a consistent basis or that you can have multiple ongoing open relationships instead of a traditional monogamous marriage or that women who say “no” don’t always really mean “no”, there will probably be scholarly work done on this. I don’t imagine “scientific people” would be any less disgusted by half this stuff as you are, since they were raised with the same beliefs most of our culture was. I would have called BS on most of this stuff myself, until I tried it out for myself.
Zing. Wondered when someone would say that, haha I’m not trying to have sex with you.
As monstro said:
Doing one or two things on that list won’t kill attraction, it’s a cumulation of things. You can group them into categories, like if someone fidgets a lot, stares too intently, snaps their head around at every little sound around them, leans into people a lot, etc., that’s all under the category of “having bad body language”. If someone talks too fast, goes back to cut-off threads, qualifies themselves a lot, say “right?” “you know?” after every sentence, etc. that’s all under the category of “having bad verbals”. One mistake here and there isn’t going to kill things, but these add up.
There’s also what point of dating you’re in. If you’re at The Keg on a date and go to the bathroom and the guy is sitting at another table chatting with strangers, yeah, that’s weird. But if you two have just met and when you go to the bathroom he follows you to the door of the bathroom and stands there waiting for you to come out, that’s creepy (socially inept guys will do shit like this because they don’t understand how that comes off). There was a thread I read here a while back where a guy joined a Meetup group and was into a girl and E-Mailed the head of the Meetup group to ask her name and such and everyone raped him for being a creepy fuck and he was legitimately mind-blown that his behavior was considered weird.
Then you factor in the hotness level of the chick. A super-hot club chick in a club environment will test guys to see if they’re a challenge or put her up on a pedestal like every other guy. An average chick in a work environment won’t.
I can link you the archived threads (thousands of posts) for Tyler Durden, Style, Mystery (main guys from The Game) that go back to the start when they were first breaking all this down and documenting everything. Unless you’re suggesting that it’s a massive conspiracy between a bunch of nerds to spend years and years of their lives just making stuff up. That would be a helluva lot of free time.
I can describe my “naturally good with women” buddy who I’ve seen pull girl after girl home from the bar, off the Internet, off the street, etc. I saw him go “10 for 10” (laying 10 new girls in 10 dayS). He uses all the concepts of solid game without being consciously aware of them in as much detail as PUAs are, PUAs are just emulating what he does. He’s shooting for 100 girls this year just because he has a high sex drive and he knows he can do it.
Or do you believe that everyone has 2 or 3 sexual partners in their lifetime and that’s “just the way it is”. Is it really inconceivable that someone who becomes attractive to women gets laid a lot? Would you be this skeptical if someone said “this plain jane average girl I know started wearing push-up bras, doing her makeup, and flirting with guys and now gets laid like crazy”?
You said you thought Tyler Durden wasn’t “smooth with the ladies”, so I’m telling you the stats and using my own reference experience to back it up. If I was using pickup and not getting laid, I would be skeptical of his stats too. But I’ve done it, I’ve watched friends do it, and I’ve seen reports of tons of guys doing it. Anyone reading this thread could do it too if they put in the effort.
That’s what took so long for a “PUA” to be posting here. We’ve had these discussions in real life with people and it always goes the same way: People who don’t try it out cast it off as nonsense and completely ignore the results. They go “oh that just works on drunk bar sluts” and I say “I’ve picked up sober girls off the street”, then they go “oh well they’re not QUALITY girls” and I say “Weird, because I’ve picked up lawyers, doctors, etc. who have their lives together and are genuinely good people who don’t sleep around”, then they go “oh well they all have low self-esteem” and I say “I dunno, they’re very confident and comfortable with themselves and their looks and accomplishments” and they go “well whatever, it’s not because of your “game” it’s because you’re good looking or have money” and I go “I’m average looking and am jobless and spend no money on them” etc. etc. etc.
I’m just here because I’ve read enough dating/attraction/shitty-marriage/cheating/etc. threads on here to know that there isn’t anyone else here as well-versed as I am in this stuff to clear up outdated oldschool beliefs on how attraction works and counter the often bad advice usually given. Also I like to write and discuss “psychology stuff” in general. And I have a lot of free time right now. 
But feel free to bring on the snarky insulting questions, you definately won’t be the first haha
Yes you do. Actors change their body language for their roles all the time. You have to do it consciously at first, but over time it becomes something you do subconsciously. You may not have had a reason to stand with good posture growing up if you spent a lot of time hunched over a computer, but there’s no reason you can’t train yourself to stand with good posture later in life. Lots of celebrities, politicians, speech-givers, etc. train their body language.
As soon as you learn to speak the language, you now speak that languge. As soon as you learn to have good body language, you now have good body language.
Right, martial arts teaches you to have confident “I can handle myself” body language. It’s often just a by-product of knowing how to handle yourself, but I walk up to women confidently because I know how to handle myself around them, and part of that is that I know my body language is tight.
Yep. In the end no one gets what they want. That guy probably wanted the girl, but just had no idea how to read her cues. If he studied a little basic game, they’d have gone home and had sex that night and both been all orgasmed out and happy. Maybe have started up a family together and ended up with the whole white-pickett fence. But because that guy was oblivious, nothing happened. I feel bad for girls when I can tell the guy they’re trying to flirt with can’t tell how horny they are haha
All the time, why wouldn’t a girl call back unless he was terrible in bed? haha The problem is the reverse, too many girls calling/txting and wanting to hang out, especially if you decide to settle down with one and you’ve got all these girls still chasing you to hang out again and leaving shit on your Facebook wall and you bump into them when you’re out with your girlfriend, etc.
This is that silly notion that sleeping around leads to a shallow meaningless existance where a tear rolls down your cheek after you kick the girl out and realize how alone and lonely you REALLY are “deep down”. The reality is you two wake up, joke about the night before, make fun of eachother’s sex-hair, go for another romp, grab some breakfast, and keep in touch so you can fuck again.
To get a girlfriend you just take a girl you’re casually having sex with and see her more than once a week. It’s easy.
And if there’s one thing nerds on the internet never do it’s spend a helluva lot of free time discussing fiction.
The other option is to go out and try it for themselves, like we all have. It doesn’t cost any money, the information is free and people are everywhere. Spend a few months focusing on learning game and the cite will be right there in front of you.
I see your great prophets didn’t teach you to recognize humor.