My apologies to the OP for continuing this hijack, but this is the SDMB and someone has to yell “Cite?”
Oh yes, this is all too extreme for modern science. :rolleyes: There’s been scholarly research that involved putting sensors on people’s genitals to measure whether they were physically aroused by watching videos of monkeys having sex, so I’m pretty sure there are academics willing to test whether men who stand with their feet a certain distance apart are more successful with women than men who position their feet some other way.
More to the point, you did claim that the linked list was “accurate and tested very thoroughly”. If science is biased against such things and refuses to examine them then the list obviously has not been tested very thoroughly and proven accurate. Your personal anecdotes are not proof.
You’re right, most scientists would be just as disgusted as I am by someone making unsupported claims and expecting others to swallow them without question.
If you’ve been lurking here long you may be aware that we’ve had several cases of posters who turned out to be lying about their own lives, with some of them claiming things even less plausible than “I’ve had sex with a lot of women.” As far as credibility goes, I’d give a pretty low ranking to a grown man who’s named himself after the imaginary friend in Fight Club and writes like a sex-obsessed version of the Time Cube guy.
You’re making an unsupported claim about his “stats”. You haven’t provided a cite showing that he even made the claim you attributed to him, much less that the claim is accurate. And frankly, a man who dates “multiple random women every week” sounds to me like a man who isn’t smooth with the ladies – he’s either been out once with a lot of women who never wanted to see him again, or he has no idea what to do after the first date.
Unless you are “Tyler Durden” then your personal anecdotes do nothing to back up his supposed claims. It’s just an excuse for boasting. The really sad thing is that you don’t seem to realize how unimpressive your claims are. It’s like bragging about how many beers you can drink in one night. Maybe it’s true, maybe it’s exaggerated, but who cares? It’s not the kind of thing well-adjusted adults mention at every opportunity.
It isn’t that women “don’t know what they want at any given moment” - its that there are a LOT of attributes, and those can change over time.
I had, still have, a thing for tall skinny brown eyed men in glasses. So if you come up to me and say “why not” and I say something about liking guys with brown eyes…" - then I go on to date (marry and divorce) a heavyset guy with blue eyes. Did I not know what I wanted - well - you got one attribute - I also wanted funny and smart (and got that - I didn’t get a bunch of other things which is why we aren’t married).
I like a guy with a sense of humor. You have a sense of humor. Unfortunately, your sense of humor is not to my taste. All humor is not created equal, and taste is subjective.
If I assure you “it isn’t your lack of money” and then date a guy who drives a BMW, that doesn’t mean I lied. It means the guy who had whatever else you lacked (or didn’t have what you had that wasn’t appealing) ALSO had money.
Its possible that the dance has changed in the fifteen years since I got married. But fifteen years ago, disclosing any specifics about “why” had a really good chance of getting accused, guilted, or whined at. And if you were retaining some sort of friendship, sometimes you’d get the opportunity to get blindsided with your “lies and shallowness” months later. It isn’t surprising to me that people don’t answer this question.
Poor wording on my part, sure. Women (people) do know what they want; they often can’t articulate it in specific terms. You’re very correct in that there are a LOT of attributes that they’re looking for, and some of them even seem to be in conflict at times. And they CAN change, and often change back, even, depending on the mood of the moment (influenced by several other attributes).
That’s my point. The key is to find the commonality among the various, and especially, conflicting attributes. And how to recognize the cause of the changing ones to find the underlying consistency guiding them. It ain’t easy, and it sure ain’t quick. If someone is looking for a quick pickup guide, I’m not it. But if someone has patience to actually learn, then it can be done. It’s not an immediate gratification, but learning a way of life. I’m sure there’s shortcuts, but I sure don’t know what they are, and not convinced they’d work for me, anyway.
But you aren’t going to find it - not for an individual woman. Its a snipe hunt. Each woman will have individual attributes. Those are going to be variable depending on context and circumstances. Some women love tattoos, some women wouldn’t dream of dating a guy with a visible tat. Some women loved tattoos five years ago, and are now looking for investment bankers who ride their bikes on the weekend.
You can go for the averages, but then you are going to date women who are - well, interested in the cookie cutter guy of the type you are trying to be. If the idea is getting a lot of dates, that’s probably a successful approach. If you are off looking for your soulmate - or a close proximity thereof - not good.
Years ago I used to hang out with a bunch of guys that were single, good looking, charming and well off. We’d go to bars - we’d class them as the kind of place that you’d hook up with the line “when I was in law school.” It was fun to watch, and I think they had fun - but no one found their soulmate.
Miss Manners once had a letter from someone who was interested in a guy who was not interested in her. She said “I think he might be gay.” Miss Manners said, “it really isn’t your business what his type is, just that it isn’t you.”
Sorry about the long-ass semi-hijack continuing but it’s relevant to the OP’s topic and I’m just responding to the epic amounts of snark.
It’s been thoroughly tested by thousands of PUAs going out for years testing and observing these things and reporting their results. Standing with your feet apart is a simplified way of saying “don’t be afraid to take up space”. Contrast the perceived confidence level of someone who’s body language is tucked in and hunched over VS someone who’s body language is spread out wide and owning his space. If women are attracted to confidence, and this displays confidence, then the simple logic involved should be pretty obvious.
The guy travelled to meet other PUAs and has met in person with a ton of people over the years before PUAs began starting actual companies (back when they taught for free just to share the knowledge) and people have witnessed him in action. He regularly teaches bootcamps where he goes out and demonstrates getting makeouts, numbers, pulling girls home, etc. Mystery, Style, etc. have all picked up chicks with him.
So you want video footage of him having sex with a bunch of women? Though I do admit I was wrong about the number of girls, in the audio mp3 linked below he says 100 lays in 3 years, my bad. That’s still a decent stat compared to the average guy.
He wasn’t trying to get a girlfriend or date them seriously, he was trying to break down how to go from “hello” to sex in as short and efficient a manner as possible, thus the really high number of dates. These days he has a girlfriend of like 6(-ish?) years and they’re having their second baby in a few months. It’s very easy to turn a casual lay into a girlfriend.
I don’t really care if you’re impressed haha but in a discussion about attraction and why guys get shot down for dates, I’m just letting you know that I have a shitload more real-world experience than the average guy does on what works and doesn’t work, so when I make claims about how things work it’s not coming from an armchair jockey position like it is for most people who date a handful of girls, have a couple of drunken one night stands they fluked into, and seriously date 2 or 3 girls in their entire lifetime.
Two hour audio seminar from way back before The Game. At 78:40 he talks about how many girls he’s been with. 100 lays in 3 years, my number was definately off: http://www.realsocialdynamics.com/audio.asp
They’ve just recently started videotaping in-field footage (it’s hard to get nightclub footage because of the dark lights and noise but now they run a Hotset event where you can go and watch a ton of in-field footage of the instructors meeting, seducing, and pulling girls home, and get a break-down of what’s going on from a game perspective): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-k7grh8-1w
Personally, I think the guy is actually pretty akward (he tells a lot of jokes that don’t hit at all during his seminars), but girls respond to what he does when he’s gaming because he’s communicating on emotional levels with them.
The first half describes his relationship with his LTR who dumped him and his sad attempts at dating afterward. The second half is a montage of pics of him with girls after he found the community and started learning game. Near the end there’s a second montage with more pics. You can say “all those girls were paid or pretending and the naked pics are with hookers” but that’s a lot of time and money to invest in making a video (he doesn’t teach so there’s no money making involved in this for him).
Day-game, a student in training picking up a blonde in the day, they ask her for feedback on his approach in the second half of the video (you can see the instructor point out the camera and her surprise): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUzgGrxsc2Q
Day-game instructor, she asks him for his number (though the audio is muted, but you can see the phone exchange, and this has happened to me before too…the girl just realizes you’re interesting and wants to make sure she sees you again): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUPFZ2UhB7g
Day-game guy again, stops her, uses a time constraint, standard “compliment her on something” opener (these bomb in the clubs at night, but are great during the day). Handshake routine starts the kino, teases her for not being cool, grabs the number (standard “hand her the phone instead of punching the number in yourself” routine). They show her she was being videotaped and point out the camera again on this one to get feedback (though it’s muted 'cause the guy wants you to get a membership so he can make money, haha): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vYJyAvotxI
Standard opener, asks directions and builds a back story, keeps his distance and leans back because her body language is closed off a bit so he shows he’s not a threat. Compliments, teases, shakes hands to build comfort. Leans back against the column as he talks so it looks like the girl is gaming him instead of the other way around (standard move), uses a standard routine (the tattoo thing). Blah blah blah grabs the number, walks with her for an “insta-date” (normally you’d go for coffee or whatever here). Then he lets her know about the camera to get feedback: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnxpPD07cgE
Cajun’s another popular instructor (trained under Mystery) for a different company who went on Keys to the VIP. You can watch it here:
He’s up against his cousin who’s starting to learn game but still terrible at it (incongruent cockiness, can’t read when he’s offending the girls, etc., VS Cajun who’s pretty much flawless the whole way through). PUAs used to post photos of themselves with chicks in bed but privacy issues with regards to the chicks snuffed that practice out pretty quick.
Paul Janka put out a bunch of in-field pick-ups. He’s a good looking guy though, so it’s easy to say it’s all about his looks, but he’s displaying game concepts (in this vid there’s persistance, kino (the handshake that never ends), social proof (talking to the mom), Demonstrating High Value and comfort (dropping that he’s a law student there), unapologetic about what he wants, teasing, etc.) The guy is actually a pretty dead-inside robot though, personality-wise haha He gets ripped apart on Dr. Phil and talks in very un-politically correct terms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT2hvRipRSM
AFCAdam, he tends to use social proof (he’d arrange parties with groups of girls and bring them out to the bar, which attracted other girls), though in this clip he’s solo going from meet to kiss on the street quickly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK6uA3xiiW4
AFCAdam again, former D&D nerd who started club promoting and using game on the girls he’d round up for clubbing. Around 40 seconds in is when he starts actually going stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwDBFKDNLIQ
Soul, an Indian PUA. He opens with the standard “I thought you were adorable and had to meet you” opener. Builds comfort/rapport, she gives IoIs (playing with her hair, laughing at everything he says), DHVs (going to see the northern lights and such). He does day-game primarily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njDfgsTqUFE
Tim is one of Tyler’s instructors, there’s in-field footage spliced through this. He’s good looking and has an Australian accent though, so it’s easy to say “well it’s just the looks/accent” but hey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJNr9YX9vnA
No idea who this guy is, just some random PUA who threw together clips/pics. I’m just throwing this in to stress that these results aren’t uncommon flukes. Thousands of guys are out there changing their social lives and learning how to be attractive to women in a consistent manner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56jK4O3Q9o8
That enough? Are all these guys faking it, paying these girls, paying hookers, hiring actors, etc.? Most of us don’t bother to record ourselves because it’s hard to get good clear hidden footage, we try to have a respect for the privacy of the girls and, quite frankly, we don’t need to record brag-footage. I made out with the first girl I talked to Friday night, a cute 18yo blonde who works at a children’s hospital, and the weekend before I grabbed the number of a sober chick (she was babysitting her drunk friends) who’s got like 4 inches of height on me who does “diagnostic sonography and interventional procedures” (whatever the hell that is), and got the number in like 30 seconds with some fast flash game. She’s gorgeous and has a girlfriend coming up soon for a weekend and wants me to set her girlfriend up with a guy too. I don’t need to take pics or videos of these girls to “prove” game works, because I know when I go out next weekend I’ll meet more of them.
Yep. It’s not an overnight thing (though you can see big improvements quickly at the start, you don’t build the consistency until you rack up a lot of experience socializing…that’s why we go out regularly).
“We’re all beautiful and unique snowflakes!” I wish that were true, because in a way it’s depressing to realize how predictable people can be, but experience says otherwise. There are very common behaviors/responses in large groups of types of people, and things you can say/do that will illicit repeatable responses. Game is about learning all those nuances.
Girls tell me I’m not their type all the time (too old, too young, too short, too poor, too hairy, too chubby, not clean-shaven, not dressed the way they like, wrong race, etc.). Then we make out, date, or fuck and the guy who’s similar to me who listened to her and backed off when she said he wasn’t her type stands there going “wtf!! what a bitch she lied to me!” She didn’t lie, she just doesn’t know what she emotionally responds to…thus bringing us back to the topic of the OP, where it’d be more useful to point the guy to a list of things he can do to present himself better than to give him bad advice on how it just happens or doesn’t happen magically.
Is going out with someone you’re attracted to, spending a lot of time with them and getting to know them, and having sex with eachother (whether it’s 3 months in or on the first date) different than your definition of dating? And is finding someone you’re compatible enough with to want to spend a large portion of your life (whether it’s a few months or a lifetime) a different motive than yours?
Because then yes, we are definately speaking different languages, but I’d be curious what your definitions and motives are if not the above.
Let’s imagine a situation where a guy calls up a woman he’s been on a few dates with, and he suggests they go out again.
Woman: Uh, I’m sorry. You’re a great guy, but I’m just not feeling things between us, you know?
Man: No, I don’t know. Can you please elaborate?
Woman: Er…uh…[trying to lump all her nitpicky reasons into discrete groups in a matter of seconds]…You have poor body language?
Man: What?! No, I don’t! Give a f’instance.
Woman: Look. I don’t have time for this shit. I gave us a chance and it’s just not going to work. Period. I’m sure there are plenty of other women who will dig you, but I’m just not the one. And that’s all I really have to say. Sorry for being short with you and for sounding so uncaring, but I don’t have to justify my feelings to you.
Do you honestly not see how the woman was put on the spot in a very uncomfortable, irritating way? She shouldn’t have to go through the trouble of organizing her reasons (that’s challenging even when it’s not on the fly!), and chances are–as this example shows–doing so won’t even help things. The guy wants those examples so he can show her how nitpicky and stupid they are. Even if that’s not his intention, that’s how it will make her feel, most likely. Her reaction would be natural, as would his defensive stance. So the best way to avoid all this awkwardness is to not even ask. A more mature conversation would go like this:
Woman: Uh, I’m sorry. You’re a great guy, but I’m just not feeling things between us, you know?
Man: Oh. I’m really sorry to hear that because I thought we were all good. But I understand how it is. If you ever want to hang out again, just give me a ring.
Woman: That’s cool. And I do want to thank you for the nice time. I’ll always treasure my Burger King crown.
Man: Well, just pretend that’s a tiara. You can be Queen for the Day. I gotta go, but keep in touch, kay?
Now, the man’s feelings are probably pretty sore, but they would be sore anyway, right? But at least he doesn’t risk pissing off the woman, too, which–if he’s not evil–would make him feel even worse.
Most importantly, which guy sounds more like an ass?
There’s a story about Ferdinand the Bull and his son walking along the pasture when they come upon this little fenced in area with a bunch of young heifers inside. Excited, Ferd Jr says, “Come on, Pop, let’s run down the hill, jump the fence, and screw one of them heifers.”
To which, Ferd Sr replied, “No, son, let’s stroll down the hill, walk through the gate, talk to them awhile, and screw all of them heifers.”
So if “dating” is a euphemism for getting laid 5 minutes after asking, we’re talking different languages. There are guys who can get laid for the asking; I’ve seen 'em. But I ain’t one of them. I’m also convinced that it’s a talent, no science, no skill, just luck of their birth. While I can usually get laid on the first date (no guarantees), it still involves knowing how to touch the inside of her mind. Because women aren’t sexually satisfied until they’re ready to be satisfied, and you have to do that through their minds.
No, I see that perfectly. I agree with you. That’s why my earlier post said:
Well, you’re wrong. I mean, I’m not trying to sound like a dick haha But it’s a learnable skill, not some magic talent/luck/etc. Those guys just went through a different set of life experiences than you (the first few girls they asked out when they were young said yes and jumped their bones whereas you might have been shot down the first few times, so one guy grows up confident with women and the other doesn’t). If you had the same life experiences they did, you would have the same outcome.
I’ve done this, I’ve seen other guys do it, and I can break down what my “naturally good with women” friends are doing when they succeed or fail into consistent principles.
Ya, I agree. It’s just that 1) you can learn how to touch the inside of her mind like that in a consistent way, and 2) you can do it a LOT faster than most people think and you can act on it a lot faster than most people think. The end result is the same, PUA techniques just make it more efficient.
It mystifies me that people think you can’t build a connection with someone and get to know them after you have sex with them. I mean, what do you think you DO while you’re laying there cuddling and sweaty afterward? You cuddle and talk. Roissy makes outrageous points but one good one he makes is that once you’ve had sex you’re both having a much more honest interaction. The girl is no longer trying to pretend to impress the guy and the guy is no longer trying to get in her pants…so after you’ve had sex with eachother, when you talk about politics, religion, relationships, taste in music/movies, you’re having a much more real conversation because you’re not pretending like a band the other person likes or trying not to say anything that will upset them and risk ruining things.
I think this is a good policy (for more than just dating, too). If they don’t allow you to decline politely, they get what they have coming.
OTOH, some people with a string of rejections may truly want to know the truth, however much it hurts, so they can figure out how to get out of their rut (and because their close friends are too kind to point out their faults).
I second this question, in a slightly less accusatory manner. It’s a somewhat unorthodox affectation for written media, and I don’t see what they’re meant to add, so why add them?
“Anonymous strangers on some other forum that I could link to, but choose not to, have claimed that this is effective” may be the least compelling argument I’ve ever seen. People who think the moon landing was faked have better stuff than this.
You’ve put a lot of effort into directing attention away from your failure to support your own claim that the linked list was “accurate and tested very thoroughly”, but if this claim is true it should be easy enough to come up with evidence. If you were just spouting off, well, it’s still not too late to say “You got me there haha it hasn’t really been thoroughly tested and proven accurate, but I think it’s good advice all the same.” You’re entitled to your own opinion after all, and this is the forum for offering opinions.
To be very clear here, when I say “evidence” I do not mean your personal anecdotes or the personal anecdotes of anyone else. I do not mean an interview with a self-professed pick-up artist or a video on YouTube. I mean academic books or peer-reviewed journal articles. It would take at least three sources describing separate studies to convince me that the list had been “very thoroughly” tested. I don’t need online full text, if you post citations for three scholarly sources I’ll be happy to look them up myself.
This discussion is (or was) about how one should handle turning another person down, not common reasons why someone might be turned down or how to avoid being turned down.
I’ve always liked the idea of ‘campfire rules’, wherein you leave each relationship <as brief as it may be> a little better than you found it.
If there’s an identifiable reason, tell them what it is; it might help them later.
If there’s not one, then ‘I’m just not attracted to you’ is both true and inarguable.
If they continue being naggy and clingy, trying to change your mind, let them know that it’s annoying as hell and, not only are YOU even less interested now, but nobody else is going to like that attitude either.
Been doing it since I was a wee lad typing on BBS chat boards and IRC. Some people pepper in a lot of "lol"s, "roflmao"s, emoticons etc. I’m a light hearted guy, there’s no ulterior motive to it. When I’m an old man I probably won’t type them as much.
Don’t read into it too much. I’m young and chat online a lot, that’s just how a lot of people write these days.
haha I guess you’ve got me. The pure logic behind the points must not actually make any sense, the fact that you can observe nerdy guys who are bad with social interactions breaking those points and alpha guys following them naturally in your day to day life, all of my years of experience doing this must have been my imagination, the hundreds of thousands of pages of field reports (which i don’t bother linking because you’ve already said you’d discount them all because they’re obviously all lies despite the fact that you can duplicate the results yourself by leaving your computer chair) from thousands of PUAs who’ve been documenting their experiments and interactions for 10+ years, the consistent going from zero success with women to well above average success with them in a dramatically short period of time, the fact that my buddies and I will go out this weekend and do the exact same thing we’ve been doing for years…all of this is completely irrelevant until it’s in a scientific journal.
You totally win! This is JUST like thinking the moon landing is a hoax. …except with a ton of inexplicably getting laid involved. Except I must be making that up too since I haven’t documented the girls I sleep with in scientific journals. I had a hamburger today and thoroughly enjoyed it, but that’s obviously a lie too.
Spend a few months practicing basic pickup, it doesn’t cost you anything. All it involves is interacting with other people in real life. Just go out and talk to strangers, purposely fuck up the 25 Points half the time and purposely follow them half the time and observe the way people react to you. Your cite will be right there in front of you.
Not sure why all of the disagreement with that list.
I can tell you as a non-PUA, just a regular guy, I have analyzed, identified and corrected in myself some number of those items on that list over the years (mostly before that list was published) and I can tell you it makes a difference.
It’s pretty simple: people (men and women) are attracted to/like being around confidence. Pretty much everything on that list addresses things related to signaling confidence.
I’ve made concrete mental adjustments to my behavior and attitude in many situations (not just trying to meet women, but anything social where insecurity might creep in) - and I have seen the results first hand.