I guess. The guys are pretty skeevey, though. With me, being single, there is the possibility that I’ll put out or give them my number, so I suppose it’s more of an honest trade.
I never realized that other people got so worked up over things like this. For me, it’s more about going out to the bar/club once in a while and having fun, flirting, etc…very little thought or mental energy devoted to it. This is a whole new perspective for me.
Yeah, the repercussions for women who chose to explore their sexuality outside of a marriage could be enormous. Even today, with mores greatly relaxed, an unwanted pregnancy is nothing to sneeze at. Women are justifiably scared.
Apparently I hate all women, or was I accused of bigoted, jingoistic misogyny and missed it?
I might not represent your average girl but I can only go from personal experience.
I have a very physical job, I can’t dress up for work and spend my days in grubby jeans and a baggy t-shirt. So when I go out I want to feel like a woman. I want to be feminine. I hide my figure for 40 hours a week and I lose touch with the girl in me. So when I show off my cleavage, I don’t even notice the guys looking, it’s not even on my radar, I do it because it makes me feel like a woman.
I don’t know if this makes sense, but I like looking good. My self confidence is shaky at best so occasionally I need to look good, to feel good, and sometimes that means wearing a low cut shirt, and other times its some great jeans and a form fitting turtleneck sweater.
Showing cleavage does not necessarily make me feel good, a shirt that fits me well, and looks good does. Because of my body shape the shirts that suit my figure tend to show cleavage, but cleavage is not the deciding factor on if I like an outfit or not.
Replay hazy. I’ll try again later.
Appropos of nothing, it’s our 16 wedding anniversary today. My wife was my best friend when I married her and still is today.
That’s the thing, I think–fun flirting and the game of relationships is all well and good. It’s the “I’m not actually playing the game, but I’m going to make you think I am for the entire night so I don’t have to pay for anything” that your friend is doing that makes many of us irritated.
Put yourself in my hypothetical shoes. I go to the bar, and you and your friend are there. Your friend shows interest in me sufficient to get me to pay for the drinks, and we flirt and dance with increasing vigor for the whole night. At the end of the night, she says “Sorry, I’m not actually single, and you never had a chance with me. Thanks for the free drinks, though.” How do you feel?
I used to feel used. Then I stopped buying drinks for people, and now am forced to evaluate everyone who looks like they want a free drink to determine whether they are actually interested in drinks and conversation/flirting or whether they are engaged in what’s effectively microprostitution–“give me your money (in liquid form) and I will give you some small amount of attention that’s guaranteed to not go further in return.” I suppose that’d be a good deal if I didn’t already have people I can flirt-for-fun-only with for free. =P
addressing Fisha’s question, I’d say it’s not the clothes but the wearer–some chick standing around in a nice top, flowy skirt, thigh-highs and heels (to pick a TOTALLY RANDOM example) isn’t trying to manipulate me just standing there. If I’m affected by it, by the mere fact of her existence in those clothes and barring further action on her part, the fault is in my susceptibility to the clothes and not the fault of either clothes or wearer.
On preview: you unasked the question, but I’m answering anyway.
I’m going to have to strenuously disagree with this sentiment.
Clothing is not neutral.
Some clothing can be, but even then it’s making a statement about the wearer’s neutrality.
And for all the girls that have the really low slung jeans, and the low cut tops, the cleavage, the bare midriffs, how you always say you’re dressing for you, and showing your independence of this horrible patriarchal, mysogynist society?
Men love it.
Zeriel, my post was done in haste, I hadn’t realized there was another page. This is an accurate representation of my first thoughts.
I’m positive that you’re right, and I believe a lot of them resent it too because it says “I may want sex, but not with you.” and the feeling is “Then don’t wear that”
Not all men, but some.
Don’t feel too bad, fishbicycle. I’m pretty sure the Dope is where I got disabused of that notion, as well. Also, glass is not a semi-solid which gradually sinks toward the bottom of the pane.
I’ll agree with you on that. Perhaps that’s where this miscommunication comes in.
A pretty simple rule is: don’t buy drinks for people unless you just want to buy them a drink. Women are allowed to carry money these days, and can purchase their own drinks. I have not found any woman to be particularly impressed with my ability to produce $3.50, plus a dollar tip, so it’s not that useful in the quest for sex, anyway.
I understand yah. I’m just saying–as much as I think it’s scummy to manipulate, I think it’s equally scummy to conflate lack-of-self-control with unintentional or area-effect manipulation on the part of the object of one’s desires.
That is, I can’t conceive of clothing qua clothing as manipulative–like I said, if you dressed up in my perfectly-acceptable-for-the-office fantasy outfit as described above and showed up to give me a quote on dedicated DS-3 lines, I wouldn’t accuse you of being manipulative, nor would I hold you responsible for my feelings of lust. If you crossed the line in some way to actively showing off or encouraging my interest specifically, that’d be a totally different scenario.
Consider–the flirting, thigh-touching snow bunny in gloves, parka, and snowmobile pants vs the disinterested, sunning beach bunny in a bikini with a towel over her eyes. Which one is sexually manipulative. Do the clothes matter?
How does the truism go? A slut sleeps with everyone but you?
As previously noted, I figured that out a few months into my old-enough-to-go-to-bars dating career.
But Zeriel, isn’t the power tie, for example, intended to be generally manipulative? In fact, “dressing for success” describes an attempt to manipulate others through one’s choice in clothing.
I think the same process is at play for different types of clothing, with different intended effects. (For clarity, if needed: I don’t mean that women who wear certain clothes necessarily want to have sex or should be compelled to do so. I think most of the time they just want (intentionally or otherwise) some level of positive response (again, not that they want this expressed back to them) regarding the attractiveness of the features being highlighted.) I would also point out that you won’t see many women’s business outfits that feature DianaG’s cleavage option B because the desired effect being sought is “successful professional”, not “sexually attractive.”
Like I said, there has to be intent–using our hypothetical internet saleswoman as an example (guess what I’m waiting on a callback on at work. Go on, guess), she could be dressing in that outfit because it looks good while being professional, or she could be dressing in that outfit because she knows it’ll make men with my tastes all drooly. Without further action on her part to provide evidence for the latter, fairness dictates I assume the former. In either case I’m responsible to myself for controlling my reactions to her clothing and overall attractiveness in the context.
Preach it brother!
I completely agree. I think everyone should take personal responsibility for their behavior.
Well, she doesn’t keep the tongue in her cheek the whole time, I hope.
There was a link in the OP, you know.
I know that “anecdote” is not the singular form of “data”, but I for one have had girlfriends with higher sex drives than mine. And mine is way up there.
And I, for one, have been the benefactor of that very problem more than a few times.
The idea of sex between loving partners as something that’s held by the woman and dispensed when the man earns/buys it really, really bugs me. I’m not ragging on you in particular–I’m not entirely sure how to answer your questions as, honestly, I don’t think they really apply to me. That is, I can’t say that I’ve ever given a backrub and then thought, “Bitch better put out!” Maybe when I was 17, I guess. OTOH, if I’m giving a backrub, it’d be really nice if I could get one in return. Either that, or she shouldn’t expect me to return the favor every time she gives me one.
Not really, unless you turn over and whack it as soon as you hear the word “no”. By the time you get home, that shit already hurts quite a bit, and trying to rub one out is only going to make it worse.
I seem to have the opposite problem. People are always telling me, “Hey, that chick is really into you!” or making snide jokes about her being “my girlfriend” or whatever, and I say, “No, come on, we’re just friends”…and then I find out that, no, she really does dig me. Even my Spanish teacher this semester has been subtly trying to hook me up with a girl in the class since he found out that we’re not married. 
He was shocked that we weren’t married when he saw how we interacted with each other. (That one, I’m not pursuing, since she actually is engaged, and to someone other than me.) I can’t figure out exactly what I have so wrong, that I can never see what’s right in front of my face.
Bit of a hijack, though, sorry.