What I REALLY want from women . . .

The BBQ Pit
201

Where does that leave women like me? I’m a frigging nurse. If I go out for drinks or dinner–I want to look nice. It has only been in the last 4 years that I have felt confident enough about my body (not my face) to wear lower cut tops. Hell, I’m 46! When I was younger, the Preppy look was in. It has so many layers, there was no looking “sexy”. I dislike the way looking “hot” is pushed in our culture. And all this “I wear what I want to wear; I like looking like a two dollar whore” isn’t feminist at all. (not that one must not shave and wear gray sacks to be feminist–how about respecting yourself and looking classy? but I digress).

so, now I’m a ball busting bitch or a slut because of what I choose to wear?
Let’s talk about clothes in the workplace. Back when I first started as an RN, we wore whites. I wore (often) a white blouse, skirt, hose and shoes. I also wore white jeans, and tops and shoes. Of course the shoes were never pumps–I’m a nurse.

Didn’t matter. I am blonde, pretty and thin (well, thinner back then anways)–I had some male pts who were frankly pains in the ass. Most were OK–a few tried to give me their phone numbers. But the worst were their friends and relatives. sheer, utter sexual harassment–the jokes, the rib nudging, the leers. Young men, middle aged men, old men–didn’t matter. It was foul. Did I let it show? Of course not–that would be inappropriate given the nurse/pt relationship.*

I perfected an absolutely expressionless face with steady eye contact, coupled with a “What do you mean by that?” It shut 99% of them up for good. Yes, I had to learn to be not only assertive, but also somewhat intimidating* just to perform my job.*

Then we went to scrubs. They are bulk(ier), but we(nurses) can still get some comments upon occasion. Now that I’m in my 40s, I tend to no longer exist for these type of men. I’ve noticed they chase young, easily intimidated tail.
Anyway, as you can see, I have had problems with this issue in the past.

I love to flirt. I’ve flirted online with many of the men on the SDMB. And it was all in good fun–but of course, time and distance and lack of face to face interaction change things tremendously. I have never flirted physically (that is, touching etc unless I am seriously interested in the guy. Women who do this are not nice. They are not well thought of among other women, for the most part).

I agree with those who say that there is flirting and then there is flirting. I am less happy with those who say, “I know it when I see it.” Really? I know it when I see a guy being a complete dick, too–but as with all human behavior, it’s open to interpretation.

IMO, the women who entice men to buy them drinks etc are playing with fire. But both parties have to start the flames-just because someone attempts to manipulate you into the price of a drink does not force you to oblige. And just because someone entices you with a drink does not mean you have to accept.
I am left wondering if men (in general) don’t think that they are entitled to sex, period. And I am also left wondering why, if that is so, it is so hard for women to get what they need to. Maybe it is all down to an essential misogyny. I don’t know. :frowning:

202

Look. Boobs happen. Sometimes at times when you least expect them to. I wear a lot of turtlenecks. But sometimes I don’t want to though and in these cases I can’t promise that my boobs won’t be all over the place. It’s hard to cover up bigger boobs. I know that sounds like a “tee-hee its not my fault I’m so sexy!” statement. THere are only so many different types of necklines. I’m having boob problems today and I’m at work for christsake. No men here with spirits for me to break. I like this shirt and it’s really not my problem what other people’s reactions are. Who am I going to turn on here though? The sheep? They just look at me and start pooping whenever i come into the room.

I flirt a lot too. Mostly because it’s fun but sometimes because it helps your position whatever that is at the time. I try to not have sex ever as a rule so however this makes anyone feel is also not my problem. and this sex as food thing for men is fucking stupid. Take a prozac like the rest of this country and get the fuck over it.

203

Eleanorigby:

I at least agree with you–clothes don’t make the manipulator. I have no idea what half the people earlier in the thread are on about. As far as I can tell, it’s the men interacting badly with you who are the problem children–you’re fine.

lobstermobster, I was with you until “No men here with spirits for me to break.”–I have to assume you’re not serious, but it’s hard to tell with you. :stuck_out_tongue:

204

I’m not out to break anyone’s spirit. Is that what you guys think of me? Oh well. Perhaps its harder to understand due to my extreme hatred of smilies.

205

I took that remark to mean just that there are no males in her immediate work environment at present. Unless one counts the sheep. (Sheep? What are sheep doing in your workplace, lobmob? :confused: )

206

It runs the other way too, what with you being new, believe me.

Message to you and to DianaG for that little gem: not every man who doesn’t see eye to eye with you on the whole gender relationship thing is a misogynist. IIRC, I chimed in upthread merely to give the lie to the notion that women want sex as much as men, and said that pretty soon we would find ourselves discussing why it was men’s fault that this is so rather than attempt to defend the patently ridiculous. And you know what? It didn’t take long, did it?
But it’s all my own fault for only chasing hotties, apparently. :rolleyes:

Put your mind at rest, hon. I’ve said before and I’ll reiterate here, I well know that I am not entitled to sex under any circumstances whatever - not even if we’ve been rolling around naked on the bed and I’ve got a signed consent form.

207

Here’s the thing about people who are “manipulated” by false hopes from an attractive potential partner (note that I said “people,” not “men,” because I think it happens on both sides of the War Between the Sexes)–usually, if you got your head out of your ass, you’d realize you were being jerked around. I’ve seen men chase women they had no chance with and vice versa, and from the outside perspective, it’s obvious what’s going on. The person being manipulated COULD see it if s/he wanted to, but is in a deep state of denial induced by the delusion that they could tear off a piece of that. I am a firm believer that, if you’re paying attention and you’re not a total moron, you can know better and get yourself out of harm’s way.

However, the gender difference I notice is this: women make men think they’re going to get sex when they’re not. Men make women think they’re going to get a relationship when they’re not. The level of manipulation and jerking around is the same, and how fucked up it is tends to be the same, but the goal seems to be different. This is not to say that the men don’t want relationships with the women they’re pursuing, but the primary and most salient goal is to get in the woman’s pants. The women being jerked around by men are usually in a pseudo-relationship where they have sex with the guy and hope he’ll grow to love her, when he’s just getting laid and making hanging out with her, nothing more, never will be.

None of the above situation is akin to rape in any way. People who are choosing to allow themselves to be manipulated by promises and delusions have no one but themselves to blame for being suckers. Rape = not having choices.

208

That’s pretty much my viewpoint on it, too. Emotional manipulation sucks big time. Making someone think you’ll put out sucks big time. But it’s no comparison to rape or sexual assault. It’s not even close.

209

Don’t call me hon. Grrrrr. This is pissing me off.
I call bullshit on this. I have never espoused this point of view. I don’t know any woman over the age of 17 who has this view. I find it insulting to women and men. It’s almost farcical–up there with Elaine’s “spongeworthy”. And while I agree with you that not everyone who takes an opposing viewpoint on this topic is misogynistic or misandrist, words such as “hon” and other’s mentioning the appearance of cleavage as tantamount to a sexual invitation are indeed, misogynistic, or at least chauvinistic. It’s not helping communication.

I agree with Dr Ruth from the 80s. If you have promised a guy sex-explicitly, as in, “let’s get it on tonight” or whatever your language is for it, and it comes time to do so, UNLESS there has been something serious occurring in between, such as a trip to ER, childbirth, him calling and saying he’s leaving you or someone close has died–a promise is a promise.
Do I mean that that promise is sacrosanct always? No-it needs to be neogtiated by the couple involved. If she promises and then changes her mind–she needs to have a reason. And they need to talk about it. If it happens frequently, then they have a Problem and Need to Talk about It. Or get counseling. Or get divorced. Or something. That IS manipulation and not nice.

I refuse to be told that how I dress, short of a written invitation on the shirt, how I walk, how I interact with men drives you all to such a frenzy that you cannot help yourselves. Why not introduce the burkah, then? That’s where this headed. (no one has said as much, but the more I think about this topic, the madder I’m getting).
I see I forgot to add the note that my * upthread was for. It was only to say that thinking in the nursing field has changed, and that now I have no problem at all confronting and admonishing men who do this. I had to do this for a nurse’s aide (Brits-a carer) when this one patient kept telling her that he wanted to see her in a pleated skirt and knee socks. Fucker. I swept into the room and told him in a level tone that since he found he couldn’t control himself with some of our staff, he was only going to deal with me. I wrote his ass up, documented his comments and called my nurse manager–a male. He not only backed me, he went up to visit this asshole himself.

210

Believe me, I’m glad you’re getting an idea of who I am. If me saying that it is bullshit to compare rape and manipulation makes me tainted in your eyes, it is my extreme pleasure to help you along with that notion.

Here’s a little message to you for your gem: using EVERY and ALL or assuming that when someone says “some men” they mean YOU is a pretty piss poor way to discuss things. Nobody said or even implied that ALL people who disagree are misogynistic so pretending you are “schooling” us on this falsehood doesn’t make you look smarter, it makes you appear pretty silly.

211

:confused: I don’t get this. Are we talking about having a reasonable expectation of having sex, or about not being entitled to sex?

I definitely espouse the view that nobody of either sex is ever, under any circumstances, literally entitled to have sex with an unwilling partner. Not even if the partner was (or seemed) entirely willing, up to and including rolling around naked on the bed and/or signing a consent form, and changed her/his mind only at the last moment.

“No” means “no”, no matter who’s saying it, to whom, when, or why. Sure, somebody actually on the point of orgasm may not be able to comply immediately with a sudden demand of “wait, don’t, I changed my mind!”. But at any other point in the process, if your partner suddenly decides they don’t want sex after all, you are absolutely NOT entitled to demand it from them, or to attempt to force yourself on them. No matter how bitchy, crazy, manipulative, or just plain evil your partner is being, “no” still means “no”.

Of course, that’s not to say you’re not entitled to feel disappointed, frustrated, resentful and hurt if somebody jerks you around with a last-second denial of sex without a decent justification for it. Sure you are, and you’re entitled to conclude that the other person is a bitch or a prick or whatever, too, and refuse to waste any more of your time on them. But that’s still not the same thing as being “entitled” to sex.

212

I am a nurse as well, and I’m glad I never worked in a time where I had to take that from patients. I can’t imagine the crap you had to put up with, and you have my respect.

I truly believe we will never really be able to see eye to eye (men and women) because I don’t know what it is like to be a man, and they don’t know what it is like to be a woman. I’m not foolish enough to believe that one sex has it easier or harder than the other overall, there are benefits and drawbacks for each side depending on the subject at hand.

When it comes to flirting/sexualization/harrassment, it is hard to explain without sounding like you hate men. What you described earlier with work situations is an example of something that happens every day. You are supposed to smile and go along with it and “appreciate” the flirting. If you don’t, you’re a grouchy bitch. It’s the underlying feeling that it’s a compliment because someone finds you attractive.

What it feels like is that many men (notice I didn’t say all) feel like if you leave the house today, you’re out there for their pleasure. It may feel like innocent flirting to the person doing it, but it can be a real pain. Do I think they are TRYING to be creepy? Not usually. But I go to the grocery store to buy groceries, not pick up dates. I go to work to pay the bills, not flirt… etc etc, on and on. It is something that men are (in my opinion) VERY right about. We do get approached a lot more than men do for dates. I’m not delusional, I don’t think every man who speaks to me is hitting on me, but I have been bothered (continuing to try after I’ve said “no thank you”) in a “normal” public place (not a pickup spot) on more than one occasion in the last month.

I get why guys try to talk to girls, but she might be the only one you’ve tried to get to know this week yet you might be the third guy that’s tried TODAY. After a while, you start to get frustrated.

213

I’d rather examine the idea that sexual manipulation is the moral equivalent of rape, than dismiss it out of hand.

OK, I’ve never been raped, but of course I’ve known those who have been. When I lived out of state one of the members of my Alanon group was an incest survivior. What she once told me has always stayed with me: for her it wasn’t foremost the sex. As horrible and exploitive as that had been, that aspect of the overall situation was something she could blot out while it was happening.

No, what caused the most damage was the understanding that it was going to happen, and it was going to happen whenever he felt like it, and there was nothing she could do about it.

Much worse than what I was going through with my alcoholic. But because my friend had suffered such trauma, she had the distilled product of what I was trying to identify: I had to be a good dad, and a faithful husband, and make sure the house was clean, the bills paid, and do everything else a decent, honorable man wants to do and be; but for which I could not expect any form of affection. It wasn’t foremost the lack of sex, it was the message behind that lacking. There would be no expression of love for me because, in the opinion of half the lovemaking parties in our union, I was ever unworthy. And there was nothing I could do about it.

Of course, suffering is subjective. Emotionally, physically; some people can endure more than others. So instead if we compare redemption rather than damage, my suffering afforded me not one fraction of the insight that my friend had extracted from hers.

214

Obviously, when some men set eyes on a friendly, attractive female showing a little cleavage and a little leg, but she does not immediately dropping her panties and spreading her legs, this is Esperanto (or Swahili or Click language or Bulgarian or Algerian National Sign Language) for “I have a pussy, and you can’t fuck it…Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah.” Naturally, if that’s what I heard in my head every time I saw an attractive female, I would be incensed, too.
Poor guys.
:wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

Fortunately, all the reasonable men who claim membership to the Straight Dope know that a smile, a nod, eye contact, and congenial conversation are just that and nothing more. I would venture to guess, that all the fine, level-headed men of the Straight Dope understand perfectly that showing a little cleavage or a little leg in the interests of fashion and self-esteem should not be construed as an invitation of any sort. I also know that, should any of the worthy and esteemed males of the SDMB, buy a lady a drink, he will likely get the chance to chat her up and see how the wind blows. If all they get is a nice chat, I know that the exemplars of maleness that we claim as our own at the SDMB would politely excuse themselves while thanking the lady for the conversation.
I also know that should one of the fine ladies of the SDMB be offered a drink from a gentleman, she would either decline politely if not interested, or accept and engage in a polite, urbane conversation with said gentleman to determine how the wind is going to blow. If such a gracious lady, as we have here at the SDMB, were to come to the conclusion that the gentleman is not to her liking, she should thank him for the drink, and protest that she couldn’t possibly accept another, but it was very nice to make his acquaintance. If she comes to the conclusion that she does fancy the gentleman, should should then communicate in possibly a more intimate manner.
Thank goodness we are all so well-adjusted.

Now, I totally owe my husband a blow job for doing the laundry today, so I probably should go now…

Oh, and Happy Anniversary, Hentor and Mrs. Hentor.

215

Wiat, you try not to have sex ever as a rule, or ever with guys you’re flirting with at a bar? Because if it’s the former, your rules suck.

216

:confused: A lot of people believe in, frinstance, waiting until marriage for sex, for personal religious or ethical reasons. Would you tell them that their rules suck?

I didn’t hear lobmob saying that she didn’t think anybody else should ever have sex. But I guess we’ll have to wait and see when/if she clarifies that remark.

217

Wow. I feel for your friend. You have just essentially described my marriage above. But I’m not an alcoholic, nor is my husband. I just exist in an affectionless marriage. I’ve already covered this ad nauseam, and am not about to go into it again. Your description really struck a chord with me. I feel for you as well.

FaerieBeth–that is so wise. Thank you for giving me some perspective over here. I was seeing red and steam was coming out of my ears! :slight_smile:

Sleeps With Butteflies–True enough. Actually, I think this opinion is more common than is acknowledged, one example is the closed thread in the Pit right now. A suspended poster started a thread on a “hot” woman he saw. Most of the outcry is about his remarks regarding race, and rightly so. But I not only deplore his racist remarks, I deplore the entire post–she is not out there for his pleasure. She’s out getting gas or picking up her drycleaning or whatever. Woman as commodity sickens me–but that’s another thread altogether*. :slight_smile:
*and just to be crystal on this–men as commodity would sicken me, too.

218

Glad to see the people with sane viewpoints coming out of the woodwork, I thought this hijack was doomed.

219

Sure. Their rules are denying them pleasure. Just like I would tell someone who believes in total abstinence from alcohol and drugs that their rules are denying them a lot of good things.

“Your rules suck” doesn’t mean “change your rules” or “I don’t like you” or “I really believe that my rules are better than your rules for you”. It means “I don’t have the same rules because they wouldn’t work for me. If those were the rules of my life, my life would suck, as I see it. I can’t get down with your set of rules, personally, but hey, they’re your rules.”

You also didn’t hear woodstockbirdybird saying that he didn’t think anybody else should abstain. That’s important, I think.

This very thing bugged me so much that I had to stop watching Queer as Folk. I know there really are men out there who view other men as commodity–and, for that matter, a number of women who view men as commodity–but getting my face rubbed in it (from one particular character, generally) was really disheartening. I’ve been proud to count myself as a straight ally and a gay rights advocate for all of my adult life, but that’s something I try not to think about because it indeed bugs me as much as the concept of women as commodity does.

220

Yeah, I would tell you their rules suck, because I think they do suck, and I find all such religious/“ethical” reasons people give for no-sex-before-marriage utterly absurd. So what? It’s not like I’m writing my congresswoman demanding that abstinence be made illegal. I get tired of this idea that you have to respect everyone else’s beliefs. I don’t respect their beliefs. I respect their right to believe them, however.

ETA: Damn, fetus already made my own point for me. If all fetuses (feti?) are so rational, maybe I should re-think my pro-choice stance…