Why don’t you go back and read and see that I’m not referring to you at all. I realize (from reading what you’ve written here) that you have the impression that we (as women) are all here for you, but my response was in regards to someone else’s comment. Not yours.
I guess it depends on what you consider to be leading on. I have a good friend–she and I go out a lot to bars. She’s got a boyfriend, but when she gets guys to buy us free drinks, she usually never mentions that fact until the end of the night. (Of course, I’m still single, so there’s still the possibility that I may put out.) I guess both parties are being a bit manipulative in that situation, though.
You people aren’t funny anymore. Way to harsh my mellow…
I find myself in partial agreement with you, in that I’m with DianaG in that the flirting-as-real-world-trolling is contemptible AND that people have an obligation to attempt to spot that and avoid it rather than whinging about it.
Assuming I’ve read you correctly–the evil side of the example in question WAS about someone who was purposefully winding guys up because winding guys up is fun–surely you agree that such behavior is unacceptable.
Personally, I wouldn’t hang out with a friend who did that–that’s pretty dishonest, don’t you think?
I wouldn’t do it so it is unacceptable to me. I think it’s dishonest, but I’m not going to say someone else shouldn’t do it - that’s on them. I don’t think it’s any different than the man who finds a girl and sweet talks her into bed for the evening and then says he’ll call her when his intention from the start was to just get laid. Both are dishonest to obtain an objective. They’re both playing a part to get what they want. One isn’t “more wrong” than the other and requires the other party to make wise choices.
I think that while an innate gender difference in desire for sex probably has something to do with it, a difference in socialization and other aspects of gender relations also play a big role. Female prostitution has been a big business since ancient times because adult men have generally had autonomy and control over their own sex lives.
In most societies, though, women have not had any autonomy in their sex lives: they are answerable to the male members of their family (father, brother, husband) for their sexual conduct. So how could heterosexual male prostitutes make money, even if women wanted to patronize them? There’s no point opening a business for customers who aren’t allowed to buy your product.
We should also remember that the alleged vastly superior male sex drive isn’t recognized as a given in all cultures. In the classical Indian culture reflected in Sanskrit literature, for instance, males are considered to be the ones capable of sexual asceticism and self-control, while females are just irresponsible horndogs (hornbitches?) who will get it on with any male in sight as soon as your back is turned. Not to say that males are seen as having a low sex drive, necessarily; just that females are the ones whose sex drive is seen as overriding and uncontrollable.
I know the whole taking it point-by-point thing is frowned upon in these parts, but I’m in the fucking Pit already, so what’s the harm?
I’m not even totally sure where to begin with this pile of steaming strawman bullshit, to tell the truth. Because some men have a higher sex drive than some women, hence the sex industry? Really? You think the only reason the sex industry exists and is profitable is because women don’t find sex interesting? And what, precisely, do bought-and-paid-for sexual relations have to do with my previously stated position (hereby summed up for the slow of thought and reading-comprehension deficient) that the meme “Women can get laid whenever they want, but men can’t” is unexpurgated horse puckey?
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As to your observation about standards, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen real life prostitutes, but they are not at all like Julia Roberts.
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I have met, spoken with and at one point numbered several (both currently-at-that-time and former-at-that-time) prostitutes among my personal friends, Skippy.* Can you say as much? Several of them were quite attractive (inasmuch as I can tell - being not at all inclined towards women, myself), and some of them were of average attractiveness and a couple of them were coyote-ugly but possessed of other charms. Of them, three were male.**
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And if there were some other explanation for the enduring, ubiquitous presence of prostitutes other than a gender difference in desire for sex, there should be lots of heterosexual male prostitutes standing on streetcorners in every town in the world.
Sorry, but your argument just doesn’t fly, and I’m not sure of the purpose in trying to make it in the first place. Clearly men generally have a much greater drive for sex than women do.
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Do you not understand the historic social and economic underpinnings of the sex industry? The mere existence of a larger proportion of sex workers catering to one gender over the other is not proof positive of the relative sex drives of each gender. It’s a fairly convincing indicator of which gender was historically in possession of the power, freedom and cashflow to engage in paid-for sex, though. Keep in mind that until the past 30 - 40 years, women were (generally) not in a financial position to engage in hiring sex. Not to mention the fact that such behavior would be a total and complete social disaster for any woman caught in engaging in such an act. Not so much for their male counterparts.
Pointing to the sex industry as evidence that men have higher sex drives than women is functionally the same as pointing to the sports industry (overwhelmingly marketed for men and aimed at men) and parroting off the meme that women don’t like sports.
Let’s not forget that there’s a segment of the sex industry that caters to women - not a majority by any means, but it’s there and growing every year. There are posters of long standing on this board who *earn their living * as members of the sex industry catering to women.
And while we’re examining logical inconsistencies in your argument, what about the portion of the male population that does not engage in paid-for sex? Are all of them such pure sexual gold that they never go without a female receptacle when they want sex? Or do they have lower sex drives than the rest of ya’ll? Maybe they’re women in disguise!
The sex industry has precious little to do with the relative sex drives of men versus women, and for you to bring it up makes you either naive yourself or willfully ignorant. Or maybe just a misogynistic bastard.
It still remains my contention that men who bitch about never being able to find someone to fuck while women can find someone to fuck anytime they want are really bitching about not being able to find someone who meets their standards who is also willing to fuck them. That is a totally different circumstance than “nobody to fuck at all” which is what the asinine “women can get laid whenever they want and men can’t” meme is all about.
*Sadly, several of them are no longer with us (occupational hazard - two died of AIDS and one was murdered by a customer) and I have fallen out of contact with the remainder - largely because I moved several thousand miles away upon completing my education and I’m a hideously bad correspondent.
**One catering exclusively to male clients for sex, two who were willing to entertain partners of either gender (depending on sex act desired) but who preferred female clients.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe a woman might want to look good for herself? When I dress sexy it’s because it makes ** me ** feel good.
I don’t care what the guys think. If my cleavage is showing it’s because I wanted it to. Maybe I have been wearing grubby clothes for the past week and dammit I want to look sexy. But rest assured it’s for me and only me. If you enjoy what you see, well good for you, but the world does not revolve around you and I couldn’t care less if my cleavage makes you think of the beast with two backs.
I am with DianaG
Get over yourself
Pure insanity, and by that I mean that there’s something gone wrong in your head. Please go back and cite anything that would support a statement like this.
I agree with you here, and to make the corrolary to the point I am making regarding women’s flirtation, I would suggest to such a guy that he should not be surprised by romantic response X if he were trying to elicit romantic response Y.
Certainly. I agree with this, while continuing to believe in the significant effect of innate gender difference in desire for sex.
Insanity? Did I rattle your tree or did you come barking at me because you thought I was referring to you? That’s my cite - that you jumped all over a comment I made about another poster and accused me of making it about you and getting it all wrong? I know it’s probably hard to believe, but not everything is about Y-O-U.
I think people think differently about cleavage and it’s purpose. I’m not saying everyone falls into one of these categories it’s just my generalizations from what I have experienced.
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Some women innocently think the outfit, which shows cleavage, is cute and makes them look good so they wear it feeling good about themselves.
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Some men see a woman wearing an outfit showing cleavage and they think, “Man I’d love to see the rest of those.”
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Some women have experienced that showing cleavage gets them an advantage in a situation. Either attention from the opposite sex that makes them feel like they are worthwhile human beings, or free drinks or sex if that is what they are wanting that night or day.
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Some men see a woman wearing an outfit showing cleavage and they think, “She is showing cleavage she might want to have some fun fun time.”
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Some men see a woman wearing an outfit showing cleavage and think, “Man I’d love to screw the hell out of her.”
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Some men see a woman wearing an outfit showing cleavage and they pass out in a pol of their own drool because the sight of half a boob is just too awesome.
Men are visual creatures so the site of half a boob is enough, a lot of the times, to get us thinking about sex.
As Ron White says, (it’s not an exact quote but the meaning is clear), “Once you’ve seen one woman naked you want to see the rest of them naked”
Why does it make you feel good?
I understand where I made my mistake. Please, however, go back and see where the quote you were responding to started with Hentor, and your first line non-specifically referred to “he” being full of crap, and see where I might have misunderstood which “he” you were non-specifically referring to.
Oh I know why you did it, you saw your name and jumped without reading the rest of the comment to see to what I was responding. Huh, imagine that… mixed up communication. And THIS stuff is in writing so it should be easier than that non verbal clothing kind.
I’m wondering if it’s possible to express a difference of opinion about women’s sexual behavior with women and not be misogynistic.
Exactly. However, my point wasn’t particularly off, since you followed up by saying that I have expressed an opinion that women are just here for me.
That’s crazy.
Hentor, why do you hate American women?
You really have no idea how you are presenting yourself. Perhaps some people aren’t taking offense to what you’re saying because they’ve been here a long time and know of you. I am reading what you’re writing and I really don’t think you realize the underlying misogyny in your message.
To answer your other question, yes. It is possible to discuss this without being misogynistic. Men who are not misogynistic have done it many times. I am not saying you are misogynistic, I haven’t read ENOUGH to make up my mind regarding that.