These threads always make me incredibly sad and angry and uncomfortable, and I don’t know why. I was told by someone recently that I have issues with men, presumably because of my childhood, but I have never felt that I really do. I have issues with men + sex, but that’s a totally different thing, isn’t it? I even write books from the perspective of guys… admittedly very flawed guys… but I feel like those men are reflections of myself. I feel they are more authentically me than any woman could ever be.
So I don’t understand why I get so pissed off by these conversations, and I’m trying to understand.
I think the idea that we’re living in a woman’s world is utter bullshit. But I have to believe that anyone who honestly believes that women have an overall unfair advantage in this society is so far beyond reason there is no point in even trying to express disagreement. Besides, I think the ‘‘my gender is worse off than your gender’’ pissing contest is really immature. I don’t care what the answer really is–I just want people to start getting along for fuck’s sake, because that’s my womanly nature. :rolleyes:
I feel like whenever people come on The Dope bitching about how frustrating women are, I want to punch someone in the face. I don’t understand… what standard of perfection am I supposed to actually achieve to be considered an acceptable relationship partner? What are the guidelines? What flaws am I allowed or not allowed to have? Which of those flaws are ‘‘woman flaws’’ and which of them are just my actual personality?
It would never occur to me to come onto a web forum bitching about ‘‘men.’’ I can see bitching about ‘‘my husband’’ (unlikely, since he’s rather saint-like), or ‘that asshole at the 7-11’’ but I don’t grasp the concept that there is some certain way that all men behave, that there are universal flaws inherent in being male.
Are there people out there that seriously believe that is true for females? That there’s some essence of woman-ness that can be readily identified? Because I strongly suspect that the same behavior in a male would not be seen the same way. I think people just look at the outside package and make assumptions about the motivations and ideas of that person based on their gender identity. And I think that’s fucking bullshit.
And I think that men and women both do this. I think we’re both fucked. Look at the media for chrissake. It lives to drive a wedge between us. As long as we continue to accept and perpetuate the lie that there is some fundamental difference between us (other than, you know, boobies), we are both going to continue to be fucked.
Trust me, it’s occurred to me. I try to be more careful, and to keep in mind that people (including me!) tend to see what they want to see.
Until it stops sounding like “women don’t like sex, period” which is, of course, bullshit. I like sex plenty. That doesn’t mean that I like it with everyone, or on anyone else’s schedule.
It’s really not. It’s “you pick people who are wrong for you” which is entirely different. You meet all kinds of people every day, and actively choose who you want to associate with.
And that’s exactly the sort of bullshit I’m talking about. Why is your “reality” any more valid than mine? A person doesn’t default to a more objective worldview simply by virtue of having a penis.
I’m sorry if you feel I’m picking on you. I don’t mean to. Actually, I mostly kinda like you. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t find your hangup on this particular subject so irritating.
I don’t understand these threads either. I like women, all kinds. I even like flirty women who entice me to buy them drinks. Mostly because I enjoy the dance. As an adult (and a gentleman) it is easy enough to politely say thanks but no thanks if I’m not interested. But even if I do I certainly don’t think I’m owed sex… sure it would be nice, but expected? Nope.
I tend to get along quite well with women probably because I don’t think of my dick as a leash. IMO, it’s just not that hard to get along with people.
Yeah, I hate that When Harry Met Sally bullshit - “men and women can’t be friends, because there’s always going to be sexual tension”. I think the whole dick-as-a-leash thing applies to a lot of guys from puberty to, say, age 22, but anybody who believes that shit once they’re actual adults is pathetic.
In 1986? Squarely in the middle of the Mom Jeans era? I’m going to have to say that either this broad had horrible fashion sense for the time (and perhaps failed to burn her 70s hiphuggers, for shame!), was WAYYYYYY ahead of the fashion curve (so far ahead as to be considered horribly unfashionable), or was wearing incredibly ill-fitting pants.
I can’t speak for Ludy, but I can say for myself that when I feel like a hot tamale (which usually doesn’t involve cleavage, because I don’t have any), it usually doesn’t have much to do with what anyone else thinks. I have my own little set of “hot mama” aesthetics (which are woefully stuck in a time warp, I’m afraid: most stunning display of female gorgeousity I’ve ever seen? Grace Slick at Woodstock, and/or Cher ca. 1974), and the closer I get to those, the happier I am, even though I have consistently dated men (hell, I even married one of 'em) who have a vastly different idea about What Makes a Woman Look Sexy.
And (perhaps to my husband’s chagrin ) I keep right on keepin’ on with my own ideas about how I like to look. And I can feel just as hot lookin’ (in a way that I consider) good all alone in my own house as I can in a room full of men. Moreso, even.
Yes. Would you, if you were on that same island, want to know how you looked? Would you wash your hair and/or shave? Why? It’s just you.
I don’t hold with conventional “hot” dressing. First of all, I am uncomfortable exposing that much flesh. Not just body confidence, but damnit-it’s cold! I was also raised to NOT look like a hootchie mama, and I have raised my daughter that way as well. Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan, the Olsen aliens–these are not good role models for appropriate dress, IMO.
So, you won’t see my belly flashing, or my thong (which I dont’ wear, since it seems like it would be an all day wedgie to me-my daughter disagrees); you won’t see my breasts or my crotch, either. You may see cleavage and a great deal of leg (I have nice legs).
But there are clothes that I know flatter me, that I feel good in, that are comfortable and attractive–they make me smile at my reflection when I wear them. That feels good. I NEED to feel attractive in order to feel sexy–even if my date is with some double AA batteries later. Who I am feeling attractive for doesn’t really enter into it (unless I’m dating Viggo Mortensen, but then I’ve done died and gone to heaven).
Perhaps men (massive generalization here) don’t realize just how harsh women are on themselves re their appearance. It is a good day indeed when a woman can look in the mirror and be completely satisfied with what she sees. This is worse in younger women–I can remember being so worried that I was “fat” when I was a teen–I weighed 120 at 5’7". If it wasn’t weight, it was zits, or hair, or eyebrows or fill in the blank. Not all women are like this, but even those who are vehement about no makeup or whatever–they have their standards in beauty, too. They differ from most women, but those standards exist.
So, to be able to admire yourself (not in a narcissistic way) is an achievement for most women. We are judged (still) on our looks. Sometimes, that’s all we’re judged on. This is so pervasive in our culture that it’s not really noticed.
I think I would dress, if I could, in ways that made me feel like I looked decent, on days when I cared. I don’t think I’d dress “sexy,” per se, but I might wear something that, if I had a mirror on that desert island, made me look attractive. Though overall, I’m a pajamas and robe kind of girl. I’d dress like The Dude from The Big Lebowski most of the time if that were acceptable at my workplace, though I think even then there would be days when I want to emphasize my better aspects, physically, just so I remember that I have them. It’s definitely not about attracting men. I work with almost no men, and definitely no single ones, I’m married, and interacting with 12 year olds all day.
It may be hard for men to believe, but yes, sometimes women do dress attractively because looking attractive makes us feel good about ourselves. We really are not trying to provoke you to any particular feelings. In fact, caution about provoking those feelings when I don’t want to has caused me to cover my considerable cleavage 99% of the time.
Yes it can… c’mon, have you ever seen a streetwalker in a Red Power Suit? The ones in “nun outfits” and the Lolitas dress like no real nun or junior high student ever have. I had a student who wanted to come to the lab in moon-ladder stilettos and these shorts which showed half of each buttcheek. When I told her she had to follow the same rules (whole-leg jeans, trainers) as everybody else, she asked to be transferred to a different TA and picked the only time when all the TAs were male. When the new TA told her the same thing she threw a bloody tantrum… it didn’t work. She wasn’t used to that.
I’ve had snake-charmer classmates do butterfly eyes at the newbie male TA to get him to do their job for them. After being prompted by A Look from the other 77 students in the class, the other male TA rescued his colleague and gave him that talk about The Facts Of Life which apparently Daddy had missed (and newbie should be grateful, the intervention of the veteran meant he didn’t get that talk from the female TAs, who were as angry as the non-manipulative students).
Wow, this has turned out to be my most popular thread, in turns of posts. And here I just wanted to vent a little frustration!
I haven’t read every post, but as for me, nothing could ever make me truly hate women or swear them off for good. The best and, yes, some of the worst parts of my life came about because of the women in it, but I wouldn’t trade any of it. XX and XY just go together, and every time I see a woman who’s special to me in a nice dress or doing her hair, or noticing me out of the corner of her eye, I remember why it’s so.
DianaG, apropos the women I pick, allow me to ramble for a moment…
As you can see from the current MPSIMS thread about weight loss, I’ve always struggled with mine - I’m currently struggling less than usual for something to do about it, though it was more than usually a problem by the time I addressed it, even if modest by some standards. Some years back my sister was opining that this was because I drank too much beer. “Really?” I asked. “How much beer do you think I drink in a week, then?” “Too much, obviously!” snorted Sis, as though clinching the argument. Sadly there was no Dope then for me to direct her towards as to the validity of an argument that blamed excessive beer-drinking for my weight, with my weight as the evidence of the excessive beer-drinking. :dubious:
It’s my view that you’re in possession of no more facts about “the women I pick” than my sister was then about the amount of beer I drank.
Ah. Well, then, that might be different. I was just getting such an odd mental image of Lindsay Lohan with Debbie Gibson’s head . . . .
As for the question posed by Polerius: What **eleanorigby ** and Rubystreak said. Same reason I’ve always liked to keep my toes pedicured, legs shaved, and girly parts waxed all winter, even during periods (sometimes stretching as long as 3 years) when I was not dating and not interested in doing so.
(and newbie should be grateful, the intervention of the veteran meant he didn’t get that talk from the female TAs, who were as angry as the non-manipulative students).
