What I REALLY want from women . . .

[Spice_Weasel]

These threads always make me incredibly sad and angry and uncomfortable, and I don’t know why. I was told by someone recently that I have issues with men, presumably because of my childhood, but I have never felt that I really do. I have issues with men + sex, but that’s a totally different thing, isn’t it? I even write books from the perspective of guys… admittedly very flawed guys… but I feel like those men are reflections of myself. I feel they are more authentically me than any woman could ever be.

So I don’t understand why I get so pissed off by these conversations, and I’m trying to understand.

I think the idea that we’re living in a woman’s world is utter bullshit. But I have to believe that anyone who honestly believes that women have an overall unfair advantage in this society is so far beyond reason there is no point in even trying to express disagreement. Besides, I think the ‘‘my gender is worse off than your gender’’ pissing contest is really immature. I don’t care what the answer really is–I just want people to start getting along for fuck’s sake, because that’s my womanly nature. :rolleyes:

I feel like whenever people come on The Dope bitching about how frustrating women are, I want to punch someone in the face. I don’t understand… what standard of perfection am I supposed to actually achieve to be considered an acceptable relationship partner? What are the guidelines? What flaws am I allowed or not allowed to have? Which of those flaws are ‘‘woman flaws’’ and which of them are just my actual personality?

It would never occur to me to come onto a web forum bitching about ‘‘men.’’ I can see bitching about ‘‘my husband’’ (unlikely, since he’s rather saint-like), or ‘that asshole at the 7-11’’ but I don’t grasp the concept that there is some certain way that all men behave, that there are universal flaws inherent in being male.

Are there people out there that seriously believe that is true for females? That there’s some essence of woman-ness that can be readily identified? Because I strongly suspect that the same behavior in a male would not be seen the same way. I think people just look at the outside package and make assumptions about the motivations and ideas of that person based on their gender identity. And I think that’s fucking bullshit.

And I think that men and women both do this. I think we’re both fucked. Look at the media for chrissake. It lives to drive a wedge between us. As long as we continue to accept and perpetuate the lie that there is some fundamental difference between us (other than, you know, boobies), we are both going to continue to be fucked.

IMfreakin’HO.

[DianaG]

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
It’s funny you should say that, because the bolded passage reminds me of the thought that came to my mind a while after you’d posted something about how people of your acquaintance were constantly believing they’d been hit on when you thought they hadn’t, and you had this problem with men thinking you’d been hitting on them when you thought you hadn’t been, and I thought: what’s the one common denominator here, DianaG?
[/quote]

Trust me, it’s occurred to me. I try to be more careful, and to keep in mind that people (including me!) tend to see what they want to see.

@Malacandra

I’m sorry if I come over as contemptuous. We may have a communication failure here; what you view as “contempt” I view as “refusal to praise when it isn’t due”. If I talk about women’s lack of sexual desire, it’s not that I’m declaring that this is not how things should be; I’m merely rebutting the viewpoint that says they’re up for it as much as men are. And for heaven’s sake, how many times do I have to qualify everything I say with “In my experience…”?

Until it stops sounding like “women don’t like sex, period” which is, of course, bullshit. I like sex plenty. That doesn’t mean that I like it with everyone, or on anyone else’s schedule.

@Malacandra

I apologise for your boredom. The feeling’s mutual. And as for “the women I pick”, this is just the “you haven’t met the right woman yet” line wearing another set of clothes. What can I say but that, in my experience, the right woman doesn’t exist?

It’s really not. It’s “you pick people who are wrong for you” which is entirely different. You meet all kinds of people every day, and actively choose who you want to associate with.

@Malacandra

And now I’ll stop saying what you, for a start, don’t want to listen to. Just don’t complain that men never try to communicate, huh? I’ve had this before, too, but God forbid that I should generalise and say “When women say they want honesty, they still want you to say what they want to hear; they just want reality revised so that what you’re saying is the truth.”

And that’s exactly the sort of bullshit I’m talking about. Why is your “reality” any more valid than mine? A person doesn’t default to a more objective worldview simply by virtue of having a penis.

I’m sorry if you feel I’m picking on you. I don’t mean to. Actually, I mostly kinda like you. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t find your hangup on this particular subject so irritating.

[Don_t_fight_the_hypothetical]

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
These threads always make me incredibly sad and angry and uncomfortable…
[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand these threads either. I like women, all kinds. I even like flirty women who entice me to buy them drinks. Mostly because I enjoy the dance. As an adult (and a gentleman) it is easy enough to politely say thanks but no thanks if I’m not interested. But even if I do I certainly don’t think I’m owed sex… sure it would be nice, but expected? Nope.

I tend to get along quite well with women probably because I don’t think of my dick as a leash. IMO, it’s just not that hard to get along with people.

[woodstockbirdybird]

[QUOTE=Don’t fight the hypothetical]
I don’t understand these threads either. I like women, all kinds. I even like flirty women who entice me to buy them drinks. Mostly because I enjoy the dance. As an adult (and a gentleman) it is easy enough to politely say thanks but no thanks if I’m not interested. But even if I do I certainly don’t think I’m owed sex… sure it would be nice, but expected? Nope.

I tend to get along quite well with women probably because I don’t think of my dick as a leash. IMO, it’s just not that hard to get along with people.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I hate that When Harry Met Sally bullshit - “men and women can’t be friends, because there’s always going to be sexual tension”. I think the whole dick-as-a-leash thing applies to a lot of guys from puberty to, say, age 22, but anybody who believes that shit once they’re actual adults is pathetic.

[auntie_em]

[QUOTE=erie774]
Her jeans look painted on and are also slung low enough to expose ass cleavage.
[/QUOTE]

In 1986? Squarely in the middle of the Mom Jeans era? I’m going to have to say that either this broad had horrible fashion sense for the time (and perhaps failed to burn her 70s hiphuggers, for shame!), was WAYYYYYY ahead of the fashion curve (so far ahead as to be considered horribly unfashionable), or was wearing incredibly ill-fitting pants.

[auntie_em]

[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
Why does it make you feel good?
[/QUOTE]

I can’t speak for Ludy, but I can say for myself that when I feel like a hot tamale (which usually doesn’t involve cleavage, because I don’t have any), it usually doesn’t have much to do with what anyone else thinks. I have my own little set of “hot mama” aesthetics (which are woefully stuck in a time warp, I’m afraid: most stunning display of female gorgeousity I’ve ever seen? Grace Slick at Woodstock, and/or Cher ca. 1974), and the closer I get to those, the happier I am, even though I have consistently dated men (hell, I even married one of 'em) who have a vastly different idea about What Makes a Woman Look Sexy.

And (perhaps to my husband’s chagrin ) I keep right on keepin’ on with my own ideas about how I like to look. And I can feel just as hot lookin’ (in a way that I consider) good all alone in my own house as I can in a room full of men. Moreso, even.

[Polerius]

[QUOTE=auntie em]
And I can feel just as hot lookin’…
[/QUOTE]

But what does it mean to look ‘hot’? What does ‘hot’ mean in a vacuum, without other human beings around?

I don’t think someone can define ‘hot’ without taking into account the effect it has (or intends to have) on others.

Let me put it this way. If you were on a desert island for several years by yourself, would you ever want to dress ‘hot’ “just for yourself”?

[rayh]

“I dress for women and I undress for men.” - Angie Dickinson.

[wonky]

[QUOTE=Polerius]
I don’t think someone can define ‘hot’ without taking into account the effect it has (or intends to have) on others.
[/QUOTE]

Imagine there’s a guy who likes to wear women’s underthings. He puts them on under his clothes, then goes about his day.

It makes him feel sexy.

No one knows he does this.

It seems you are saying that there’s no way this can make him feel sexy since it has no intended effect on other people.

[Liberal]

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I’ll add to that (not directed at any one poster, but because I find this quote so helpful in life). “If your spouse locks you out of the house, you don’t have a problem with your door.”
[/QUOTE]
Also great!

[eleanorigby]

[QUOTE=Polerius]

Let me put it this way. If you were on a desert island for several years by yourself, would you ever want to dress ‘hot’ “just for yourself”?
[/QUOTE]

Yes. Would you, if you were on that same island, want to know how you looked? Would you wash your hair and/or shave? Why? It’s just you.
I don’t hold with conventional “hot” dressing. First of all, I am uncomfortable exposing that much flesh. Not just body confidence, but damnit-it’s cold! I was also raised to NOT look like a hootchie mama, and I have raised my daughter that way as well. Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan, the Olsen aliens–these are not good role models for appropriate dress, IMO.

So, you won’t see my belly flashing, or my thong (which I dont’ wear, since it seems like it would be an all day wedgie to me-my daughter disagrees); you won’t see my breasts or my crotch, either. You may see cleavage and a great deal of leg (I have nice legs).

But there are clothes that I know flatter me, that I feel good in, that are comfortable and attractive–they make me smile at my reflection when I wear them. That feels good. I NEED to feel attractive in order to feel sexy–even if my date is with some double AA batteries later. Who I am feeling attractive for doesn’t really enter into it (unless I’m dating Viggo Mortensen, but then I’ve done died and gone to heaven).

Perhaps men (massive generalization here) don’t realize just how harsh women are on themselves re their appearance. It is a good day indeed when a woman can look in the mirror and be completely satisfied with what she sees. This is worse in younger women–I can remember being so worried that I was “fat” when I was a teen–I weighed 120 at 5’7". If it wasn’t weight, it was zits, or hair, or eyebrows or fill in the blank. Not all women are like this, but even those who are vehement about no makeup or whatever–they have their standards in beauty, too. They differ from most women, but those standards exist.

So, to be able to admire yourself (not in a narcissistic way) is an achievement for most women. We are judged (still) on our looks. Sometimes, that’s all we’re judged on. This is so pervasive in our culture that it’s not really noticed.

[Rubystreak]

[QUOTE=Polerius]
Let me put it this way. If you were on a desert island for several years by yourself, would you ever want to dress ‘hot’ “just for yourself”?
[/QUOTE]

I think I would dress, if I could, in ways that made me feel like I looked decent, on days when I cared. I don’t think I’d dress “sexy,” per se, but I might wear something that, if I had a mirror on that desert island, made me look attractive. Though overall, I’m a pajamas and robe kind of girl. I’d dress like The Dude from The Big Lebowski most of the time if that were acceptable at my workplace, though I think even then there would be days when I want to emphasize my better aspects, physically, just so I remember that I have them. It’s definitely not about attracting men. I work with almost no men, and definitely no single ones, I’m married, and interacting with 12 year olds all day.

It may be hard for men to believe, but yes, sometimes women do dress attractively because looking attractive makes us feel good about ourselves. We really are not trying to provoke you to any particular feelings. In fact, caution about provoking those feelings when I don’t want to has caused me to cover my considerable cleavage 99% of the time.

[Slypork]

[QUOTE=auntie em]
In 1986? Squarely in the middle of the Mom Jeans era? I’m going to have to say that either this broad had horrible fashion sense for the time (and perhaps failed to burn her 70s hiphuggers, for shame!), was WAYYYYYY ahead of the fashion curve (so far ahead as to be considered horribly unfashionable), or was wearing incredibly ill-fitting pants.
[/QUOTE]

This was in the clubs in Germany. I never paid attention to fashion but I remember seeing ass cleavage.

[Nava]

[QUOTE=Zeriel]
Hentor, you’re being a toolbox. Clothing is not and cannot be sexually manipulative–if you think it is, you need a cold shower. Bring one with you everywhere if necessary.

[/QUOTE]

Yes it can… c’mon, have you ever seen a streetwalker in a Red Power Suit? The ones in “nun outfits” and the Lolitas dress like no real nun or junior high student ever have. I had a student who wanted to come to the lab in moon-ladder stilettos and these shorts which showed half of each buttcheek. When I told her she had to follow the same rules (whole-leg jeans, trainers) as everybody else, she asked to be transferred to a different TA and picked the only time when all the TAs were male. When the new TA told her the same thing she threw a bloody tantrum… it didn’t work. She wasn’t used to that.

I’ve had snake-charmer classmates do butterfly eyes at the newbie male TA to get him to do their job for them. After being prompted by A Look from the other 77 students in the class, the other male TA rescued his colleague and gave him that talk about The Facts Of Life which apparently Daddy had missed (and newbie should be grateful, the intervention of the veteran meant he didn’t get that talk from the female TAs, who were as angry as the non-manipulative students).

[Lizard]

Wow, this has turned out to be my most popular thread, in turns of posts. And here I just wanted to vent a little frustration!

I haven’t read every post, but as for me, nothing could ever make me truly hate women or swear them off for good. The best and, yes, some of the worst parts of my life came about because of the women in it, but I wouldn’t trade any of it. XX and XY just go together, and every time I see a woman who’s special to me in a nice dress or doing her hair, or noticing me out of the corner of her eye, I remember why it’s so.

[Malacandra]

DianaG, apropos the women I pick, allow me to ramble for a moment…

As you can see from the current MPSIMS thread about weight loss, I’ve always struggled with mine - I’m currently struggling less than usual for something to do about it, though it was more than usually a problem by the time I addressed it, even if modest by some standards. Some years back my sister was opining that this was because I drank too much beer. “Really?” I asked. “How much beer do you think I drink in a week, then?” “Too much, obviously!” snorted Sis, as though clinching the argument. Sadly there was no Dope then for me to direct her towards as to the validity of an argument that blamed excessive beer-drinking for my weight, with my weight as the evidence of the excessive beer-drinking. :dubious:

It’s my view that you’re in possession of no more facts about “the women I pick” than my sister was then about the amount of beer I drank.

[auntie_em]

[QUOTE=erie774]
This was in the clubs in Germany. I never paid attention to fashion but I remember seeing ass cleavage.
[/QUOTE]

Ah. Well, then, that might be different. I was just getting such an odd mental image of Lindsay Lohan with Debbie Gibson’s head . . . .

As for the question posed by Polerius: What **eleanorigby ** and Rubystreak said. Same reason I’ve always liked to keep my toes pedicured, legs shaved, and girly parts waxed all winter, even during periods (sometimes stretching as long as 3 years) when I was not dating and not interested in doing so.

[Slypork]

[QUOTE=auntie em]
Ah. Well, then, that might be different. I was just getting such an odd mental image of Lindsay Lohan with Debbie Gibson’s head . . . .

As for the question posed by Polerius: What **eleanorigby ** and Rubystreak said. Same reason I’ve always liked to keep my toes pedicured, legs shaved, and girly parts waxed all winter, even during periods (sometimes stretching as long as 3 years) when I was not dating and not interested in doing so.
[/QUOTE]

If you’re period lasts 3 years I think you better see your gyno!

[elucidator]

Commendable. I know its old-fashioned, but I rather like effeminate women.

[auntie_em]

[QUOTE=erie774]
If you’re period lasts 3 years I think you better see your gyno!
[/QUOTE]

I tried. She drowned during the exam.

Ewwwwwwww . . .