what is it about having children that causes women to become inconsiderate monsters?

[Richard_Pearse]

@nyctea scandiaca

Fact is, if they’re too young to learn, walk or talk, simply buckle them into their seat-carrier, put them in their bassinette or crib, (or have your husband take care of them) then take a shower. If they’re walking and talking, they’re old enough to be taught proper behavior (as in, no, you can’t be in the bathroom with mommy while she is going to the bathroom, or no, you can’t watch SpongeBob, mommy is watching her program).

You’re not wrong. But all children are different. Ours seems near perfect and we find we can do pretty much all the stuff we used to–at home that is, we are reluctant to take her out to a restaurant and she is still breastfeeding so no babysitter for any longer than about 3 hours.

A friend of ours, by comparison, is having a very very hard time with her little girl. She finds her very difficult to settle so she is up most of the time comforting her. She gets little sleep and has difficulty finding periods of consecutive time where she can have a long phone conversation or watch a TV program in peace.

You may suggest that she should just lock the little one away for an hour and let her scream herself to sleep, but at that age (she’s about 2 months old) it is most important to let the baby learn to trust that when she needs you, you will be there. Not to mention that it is damned near impossible to ignore your own baby’s crying. Someone else’s is not so bad, but listening to your own, particularly when you are new to it, is heart breaking!

Now in the same way that our young babies are quite different, I’m sure older toddlers are quite different as well. Just because one child is easy enough to cope with, doesn’t mean another is. And some parents just cope better than others.

Fessie may have been exagerating, or that really may be what her life is like. If it is like that, the fact that you have coped with a particular group of children, does not suddenly make it easier for Fessie to cope, or negate any of the problems that she may have.

[Rilchiam]

Okay, Death Ray, I can see that. nyctea’s experience is not universal. However, when fessie said

What I don’t think some of you understand is what being a mother of small children entails…You guys who haven’t done it have absolutely no clue.

she gives the impression that her experience is universal.

[Ellen_Cherry]

@nyctea scandiaca

Why don’t you educate me then, oh wise one!

I guess I learned nothing in all my years of babysitting, working in a daycare center, and oh yeah, taking care of THREE YOUNG CHILDREN (my boyfriend’s kids) in my home on a regular basis!

All I know is that no child of mine is going to dictate what I watch on TV, or prevent me from taking a shower daily, or whatever else fessie was talking about. Sounds to me like she lets her kids run the household, and the father of the kids does squat.

Fact is, if they’re too young to learn, walk or talk, simply buckle them into their seat-carrier, put them in their bassinette or crib, (or have your husband take care of them) then take a shower. If they’re walking and talking, they’re old enough to be taught proper behavior (as in, no, you can’t be in the bathroom with mommy while she is going to the bathroom, or no, you can’t watch SpongeBob, mommy is watching her program).

It’s a lot easier to be heartless and autocratic when they’re not your own.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Ellen Cherry

It’s a lot easier to be heartless and autocratic when they’re not your own.

What in the part you quoted is either heartless or autocratic? I’m just not seeing it.

Daniel

[Hamadryad]

I’ll pipe in at this point to say that people who think they know what it’s like to be a parent because they have babysat, worked in childcare OR been a step-parent are also clueless.

I helped raise my two little brothers from birth. Did a ridiculous amount of free babysitting. Chaged diapers. The works. Married a guy with four kids, three of whom lived with him. Helped as much as I could.

Then I had my own kids. Totally different. TOTALLY DIFFERENT. So dealing with other people’s kids doesn’t qualify you to speak as if you knew what it was like to be a parent, IMNPFHO.

catsix, you’ve been bitching about parents at your workplace for YEARS. Think maybe in these threads you can just make one post which links to the other dozen times you’ve complained?

FTR, I think you’re right, and those parents are taking advantage of the boss, you and their work environment. However, it’s not because they’re parents; it’s because they’re ASSHOLES. Your boss isn’t unsympathetic because he’s a parent - it’s because he’s an ASSHOLE. I don’t think anyone is arguing for parents to have the RIGHT to come in late and leave early. I think everyone pretty much agrees that you’re supposed to be at work when you’re supposed to and not leave until you’re supposed to, and that you’re supposed to be doing work while you’re there.

It’s not going to change. Your job is not going to get better. Blaming the parents and your asshole boss is not going to make any of it stop. I’m really sorry you ended up with a job at a place in which you’re treated unfairly, but complaining at every opportunity about the PARENTS OMGOMG isn’t going to bring changes, and it makes you appear (to me, anyhow) to be a giant pile of whiny victim.

A lot of parents these days, I think, are under the impression that if little Jenny and Jason aren’t scheduled for a bunch of “enrichment classes” that they are bad parents. If they don’t attend EVERY recital and game and exhibition, they’re being NEGLECTFUL. If they don’t have themed parties with a rented moonwalk in the back yard. their kids will be unhappy because THEY didn’t have a cool party. Now, the parents are WRONG on all three counts. At this point, though, they’re more worried about what their kids’ parents and school think about them than their co-workers.

It’s not an excuse; the parents who do that kind of thing - hyperschedule the kids at the expense of work - obviously don’t have their priorities in order. If there was some way to show parents that it takes more than a missed concert or a dollar store birthday party to fuck up their kids I think things would be easier for everyone. Unfortunately I haven’t completed my “make people have common sense and consideration”-ray yet.

[Ellen_Cherry]

Daniel, I would feel as though I was being heartless and autocratic if I snapped off the Spongebob to watch Friends, or let my little one wail while I primped.

She said "All I know is that no child of mine is going to dictate what I watch on TV, or prevent me from taking a shower daily, " and “no, you can’t be in the bathroom with mommy while she is going to the bathroom,”

When there’s a little one crying at the bathroom door just because he wants to be with you and you determine that your private time is more important than comforting the child, that seems heartless to me. I’m willing to give up privacy; it’s one of the sacrifices I willingly make to be a mother.

Similarly, there’s no television program important enough to me that I have to watch it. Of course, no kid has to watch television either. But there are times when a child will fuss through Friends, despite your efforts to redirect him! So, let’s watch the Spongebob. Maybe I’ll tape Friends and watch it after he’s in bed.

Maybe it’s just me, though. I’ve been told a lot lately that many people do not share my views in this regard.

On preview, I see Hama is making the point better.

[holmes]

Hell, I used to sit on the toilet to have a wee, when my youngest was a toddler because she started standing up to wee on her potty.

Sacrifices…

[catsix]

Hamadryad said:
catsix, you’ve been bitching about parents at your workplace for YEARS. Think maybe in these threads you can just make one post which links to the other dozen times you’ve complained?

How about we just have everybody link to an old post when they’re discussing the same topic that they’ve discussed before, that way we don’t have to actually have a discussion?

You act like I go around and do nothing but post about the asses at work who ditch on their jobs so they can go to the chorus concert. That’s hardly the case. I brought it up in this thread because the thread is about, get this, inconsiderate parents. If you want examples of posters who interject the same exact freaking stories about their life in every single thread they participate in, I’m sure you can find some better ones than me to use.

I’m really sorry you ended up with a job at a place in which you’re treated unfairly, but complaining at every opportunity about the PARENTS OMGOMG isn’t going to bring changes, and it makes you appear (to me, anyhow) to be a giant pile of whiny victim.

At every opportunity? Hardly. Like I said, I don’t go running around posting about this in every single thread that I participate in, nor am I any kind of ‘whiny victim’. You just seem to have a problem with me posting about inconsiderate parents that I have to deal with in a thread about inconsiderate parents. That would make it your problem.

[Green_Cymbeline]

@Ellen Cherry

Daniel, I would feel as though I was being heartless and autocratic if I snapped off the Spongebob to watch Friends, or let my little one wail while I primped.

…

When there’s a little one crying at the bathroom door just because he wants to be with you and you determine that your private time is more important than comforting the child, that seems heartless to me. I’m willing to give up privacy; it’s one of the sacrifices I willingly make to be a mother.

Similarly, there’s no television program important enough to me that I have to watch it. Of course, no kid has to watch television either. But there are times when a child will fuss through Friends, despite your efforts to redirect him! So, let’s watch the Spongebob. Maybe I’ll tape Friends and watch it after he’s in bed.

It may sound heartless to you, but to me it seems like teaching an important lesson: Junior is not the center of the universe and does not always get what he wants. Mommy has feelings and wants too and Junior needs to start learning the lesson about respecting others as early as possible. To let Junior’s whining prevent you from peeing alone or talking 30 minutes to watch Friends seems like spoiling to me.

[Hamadryad]

@catsix

How about we just have everybody link to an old post when they’re discussing the same topic that they’ve discussed before, that way we don’t have to actually have a discussion?

All I meant was that after years you’re STILL jumping into threads about inconsiderate parents with the same gripes about the same job and the same parents and the same cockhole boss. I mean, jesus, sorry your workplace is full of shitheads and everything, but now you’ve chosen to work with them for YEARS. At this point, it’s your own problem, not their fault.

[holmes]

@nyctea scandiaca

It may sound heartless to you, but to me it seems like teaching an important lesson: Junior is not the center of the universe and does not always get what he wants. Mommy has feelings and wants too and Junior needs to start learning the lesson about respecting others as early as possible. To let Junior’s whining prevent you from peeing alone or talking 30 minutes to watch Friends seems like spoiling to me.

You do realize a lot of this stuff is age related and environment determined. We have a relatively large house and the bathroom was quite a bit away. We had a woodstove, AND were in the middle of a big renovation. It’s not smart to leave a 1 year old alone in a room, even if you have to take a whiz, or a bath. All it takes is an instant and you’re on your way to the emergency room.

Perhaps we need to back off the blanket generalizations and realize that at some point in a parent’s life, ‘Junior’ gets want junior needs…unconditionally and that doesn’t equate ‘spoiling’.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Ellen Cherry

Daniel, I would feel as though I was being heartless and autocratic if I snapped off the Spongebob to watch Friends, or let my little one wail while I primped.

I think you’re going all-or-nothing here. It’s one thing to turn off a child’s show to watch your own; it’s another thing to allow the child to do the same thing to you. It’s one thing to stay in the bathroom for a long time primping, with a locked door, while a child cries; it’s another thing to actually go to the bathroom (i.e., defecate/urinate) with a locked door.

If someone refuses to let anyone in the household turn off someone else’s preferred television program, that’s neither autocratic nor heartless: that’s setting up healthy boundaries that are going to keep the kid from being ostracized, shunned, and attacked when he goes to preschool. (If a kid is raised thinking he’s got control over the household entertainment, what’s he going to do when he’s at school? Are the other kids going to be willing to cede control to him?) Same thing with the bathroom: we’ve got a culture that demands privacy for certain bodily functions, and a kid is ill-prepared for society if she doesn’t learn that lesson before she goes to school.

Now, very young children shouldn’t be watching television anyway: chances are too great that it’s going to malform their developing brains. By the time a kid is old enough to watch TV, she’s old enough to learn rules of fairness and obey them.

Very young children might be allowed in the bathroom while the parent is using the toilet, but we’re talking here about not being able to shower. That’s different.

Daniel

[catsix]

Hamadryad said:
All I meant was that after years you’re STILL jumping into threads about inconsiderate parents with the same gripes about the same job and the same parents and the same cockhole boss.

Yeah well, I’m eternally sorry to you that I haven’t found other employment in the last two years, what with Pittsburgh’s huge and fast-growing techy economy and all. It’s not as if I’ve sat here on my hands and not attempted to find somewhere else to work. I’m still attempting that right now. Fact of the matter is, other than the four major assholes, my job is actually pretty good and so are the rest of the people I work with, so I hardly see anything wrong with letting off the steam in a thread that’s already about the topic.

If I were say, starting threads once a week or once a month about this for years on end, then maybe I could understand your issue.

I mean, jesus, sorry your workplace is full of shitheads and everything, but now you’ve chosen to work with them for YEARS.

Four out of around fifty is not ‘filled with’. Also, see above. The benefits of the job, as well as the difficulty in finding available positions in the commutable area have made it impractical to just up and quit.

I don’t limit discussion to only this topic, I don’t bring it up in unrelated threads, and as far as I can remember I’ve never started a thread about it. The only co-worker inspired thread I remember starting is the one that involved someone having shat on the floor in a lab.

[Ellen_Cherry]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

I think you’re going all-or-nothing here. It’s one thing to turn off a child’s show to watch your own; it’s another thing to allow the child to do the same thing to you. It’s one thing to stay in the bathroom for a long time primping, with a locked door, while a child cries; it’s another thing to actually go to the bathroom (i.e., defecate/urinate) with a locked door.

If someone refuses to let anyone in the household turn off someone else’s preferred television program, that’s neither autocratic nor heartless: that’s setting up healthy boundaries that are going to keep the kid from being ostracized, shunned, and attacked when he goes to preschool. (If a kid is raised thinking he’s got control over the household entertainment, what’s he going to do when he’s at school? Are the other kids going to be willing to cede control to him?) Same thing with the bathroom: we’ve got a culture that demands privacy for certain bodily functions, and a kid is ill-prepared for society if she doesn’t learn that lesson before she goes to school.

Now, very young children shouldn’t be watching television anyway: chances are too great that it’s going to malform their developing brains. By the time a kid is old enough to watch TV, she’s old enough to learn rules of fairness and obey them.

Very young children might be allowed in the bathroom while the parent is using the toilet, but we’re talking here about not being able to shower. That’s different.

Daniel

I hope I’m not coming off as strident! I of course agree that there are things a child must recognize in order to get along in society. I’m not advocating giving him control of the remote entirely, just gently pointing out that we parents do tend to watch more Spongebob than Friends.

I know how to recognize a true need versus a mere want. I’m extremely cognizant of my responsibility to raise polite, caring people who think of others before themselves. Child-rearing is multi-facted and changes with age cirumstances (“has he had a nap?”). And it differs with different children. Yes there are some absolutes but anyone who thinks there are hard and fast rules that can be applied to every child in every circumstance doesn’t know a lot about parenting or children!

holmes has pointed this out: it’s age-related. I have older, school age kids and a young one under two. Of course the 8-year-old doesn’t come into the bathroom; he can occupy himself while I’m showering. The 18-month-old can sometimes play quietly on the floor while I bathe. Sometimes. I think I was remembering whoever posted the “from day one” stuff. I’m very aware that it’s my responsibility to train my children to wait when they’re of an age to wait, and be considerate of others at all times.

(As an aside: I started participating in this thread BEFORE it was dumped in the pit. I’ll probably say good-bye now. )

[Frank]

@catsix

Yeah. Oops.

After a whole pile of quotes involving two people with ‘M’ names who are hammering away at me, I’d think a minor mistake like mixing up their names is, well, minor.

Unless you’re suggesting I did it on purpose?

I asked you politely to please be more careful, that’s all. Whence the bile?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Ellen Cherry

I hope I’m not coming off as strident! I of course agree that there are things a child must recognize in order to get along in society. I’m not advocating giving him control of the remote entirely, just gently pointing out that we parents do tend to watch more Spongebob than Friends.

That certainly makes sense. I just didn’t get where you were calling nyctea heartless and autocratic: if you reread his posts, I suspect you’ll see they can be interpreted in a manner pretty close to what you’re saying here.

Daniel

[Dangerosa]

@Mighty_Girl

I agree, my daughter is 8 months old and I have the odd moment off that I can use posting on the dope. However, if you read nyctea scandiaca’s first post you will see she said “from day one”. My bad I wasn’t clear enough.

Well, I admit I don’t get nyctea either - I guess all parents (and adults in responsibility) are as unique as the children. We don’t watch what we want to on television either - because “Friends” is full of sexual innuendo - as is most television. I think its perfectly OK for adults to engage in pre-marital sex. I don’t want my kids growing up from a very young age believing that its appropriate for THEM. And they pick it up FAST. Most adult television is not behavior and language I want my kids to model.

Two shows I’ve enjoyed in the past few years have been Buffy and The West Wing (early seasons). Buffy is too violent and scary for small kids. The West Wing deals with some pretty adult issues - not generally at the sex and violence level, but at the complexity level, that I don’t think they yet have the background to understand.

[holmes]

@Frank

…Whence the bile?

One thing that always amazes me about this place, is the sheer venom that’s spewed when it comes to a parenting or children thread.

I don’t get it.

[catsix]

Frank said:
I asked you politely to please be more careful, that’s all. Whence the bile?

It was a simple typing mistake of inadvertently sticking one Ma name where the other Ma name should have gone when the two Ma names were in posts one after the other. I think a ‘moderator note’ that implies I’m careless with attributation was a little bit of an overreaction to what could’ve easily been hashed out the minute I saw Maureen’s post, scrolled up, and realized that I had made a mistake.

Your reaction seemed to me like you were calling me out on a history of carelessness on misattributing quotes to people. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times I’ve jacked that up in the four years.

I apologize for being snippy with you, just thought I was getting some unnecessary official warning.

[Ponder_Stibbons]

@catsix

@Frank

I asked you politely to please be more careful, that’s all. Whence the bile?

It was a simple typing mistake …

Your reaction seemed to me like you were calling me out on a history of carelessness on misattributing quotes to people. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times I’ve jacked that up in the four years.

How odd. I saw a straightforward and very neutral post containing absolutely nothing regarding “history”. Here’s Frank’s quote in its entirety:

@Frank

The quote was actually from Malthus in post #172. catsix, please be more careful in your quoting.

If Frank had written this regarded something I had said, I would have replied with something like “Oops! Right you are, Frank, that was Malthus. My bad.”