what is it about having children that causes women to become inconsiderate monsters?

The BBQ Pit
101

Are you seriously suggesting that their boss being a tard is enough justification for them to also behave like self-important assholes instead of taking their job responsibilities seriously?

There are a lot of things that people are allowed to do because there’s no rule against it, but if they have some integrity they don’t do. Shirking off work onto other people’s shoulders just because your boss hasn’t made a rule against it is hardly justified behavior.

Exactly. They should be able to take their job responsibilities seriously even if nobody holds their hand.

Sorry about that. I do specifically mean three (formerly four) individuals where I work.

The boss is doing nothing about it because he thinks if he pisses one of them off, they’ll sue.

Exactly. If you don’t pick up the slack, if you don’t stay that hour or two late, if you don’t come in on that Saturday, you’re not a team player. It’s that if you say anything to the boss about so-and-so taking off half a day to go to her kid’s chorus thing when you’ve been given hell over having to take half a day off to go to the only available appointment with your doctor, then you’re being unfair and not recognizing the strain of being a working parent. You’re inconsiderate for begrudging them time to do something with their kid, and selfish for asking for time to do something for your health.

And here’s the problem. You’re assuming that whatever I need my personal time for (those hours that are not normal scheduled work hours) is automatically some frivolous bullshit that isn’t as worthwhile as what you do with your off time.

I am every bit as entitled to my time off, no matter what I do with it, as you are entitled to your off-clock time.

If we’re both scheduled to work until 4:30, you shouldn’t be getting to cut out at 4:00 and expecting that I will stay until 5:00 because whatever I have to do isn’t as important.

I know for a fact that the two chronic-lates have absolutely not picked up 20 to 30 minutes of my shortcomings every single day, because I get to work around 20 minutes early and I’m not out the door until I wrap up whatever I was working on. I complained about the chronic lateness. I was told that you just have to be ‘more understanding’ that ‘people with kids can’t be on time.’

102

Nope. OTOH, if the problem isn’t pointed out to them, how can they be expected to address it? What’s stopping you from pointing it out, other than your belief that they should all act exactly like you?

It’s your time off. What you do with it is your business. Granted. So why is it ALSO your business what those parents do with THEIR time off? If the employer doesn’t have a problem with it, it should be treated the same as when you have an important appointment. You’ve made all these arguments endlessly. Repeating them doesn’t make them any more valid.

If your work place is so intolerable, then find a different place to work more to your liking. If these people are bringing down productivity, I’d think HR would want to hear about it. But then, do you really know what their productivity is? Or just that they don’t work as many hours as you? You can’t expect the problem to resolve itself to your liking magically. Report it already.

103

Maureen, This may be because I am “old school” or something, but I am a little at a loss as to how I would need someone to tell me that there is a problem if I am not showing up for work on time an leaving before I am scheduled to do so. Isn’t that something that is stunningly obvious?

You are right, however, in your take that everyone’s free time is no one’s business but their own. Up until the point where it starts effecting other people. If we look at our mythical irresponsible childless employee that won’t stay late because he wants to go to happy hour, well that is no one’s business but his own. However, if he is out drinking until 4 in the morning and coming in late all of the time and reeking of gin, this is now my business as well as the companies.

One final thought: I have never really bought into this whole “if your job is so bad, you should quit”. Why don’t we just stay “if you can’t be at work for the stated hours that you are hired to be there, you should go”? Why not punish the person that is not pulling their weight?

104

Thank you.

I have to say, I can’t think of too many egregious incidents of parents getting extra time off or being chronically late or imposing on me to finish their work or whatever because of their children. But I have had to put up with children in the office because of this (or because it was a teachers’ inservice day, and mommy couldn’t get someone to take the kid for the day).

The workplace is one place where children patently do not belong (caveat: unless they are part of the intrinsic nature of the business, or are the clientele, etc.). I can’t concentrate on my work if your little “darling” is talking on the phone, playing video games on someone’s computer, giggling, playing with noisy toys (or making “engine noises/gun noises/monster noises” while playing with non-noisy toys), asking you lots of questions, complaining that there’s “nothing to do” and they’re “bored”, asking me if they can draw me a picture, asking me if I have anything for them to do, asking for something to eat or drink, sniffling & sneezing, whining & crying, etc., etc. I should not have to. Then there’s the mess they may make that mommy does not necessarily clean up, the office supplies pilfered to give them something to do (“I need some copy paper and some pens & some highlighters so Molly can draw”), etc.

And when I catch the virus that Molly has, who does the manager get irritated with for missing work? Who bears the brunt? Not Molly’s mother.

Fortunately, this is not the kind of workplace I am in now. But it used to be. And it is not reasonable to say to someone in that situation, “well, it’s your manager’s fault for allowing it - talk to your manager.” Because my manager didn’t mind, and wasn’t bothered by it. I was. And due to “peer pressure,” I was the one who was regarded as the problem if I complained or my productivity was hampered. And jobs were not that easy to come by at the time (and for some people, it can be extremely stressful to make changes in their life like that - especially for people who have stress-triggered illnesses that may have contributed to their decision not to have children).

I’ve not been one to complain when someone asked me if I could switch schedules so they could get time off to be with their children/family when I didn’t have my own. And I hope that if I had a life circumstance (let’s say cancer treatment) that made it necessary for me to take extra time off, that others would be compassionate about it toward me, in return.

But there are certain “accomodations” that are not at all reasonable nor fair to anyone, and bringing the kid to the office is one that makes me very irritated.

105

Maybe it’s not obvious to that person. I don’t know about you, but for people who work in a fairly independent environment, it’s difficult to tell who spends how much time on what. For example: on days that I’m on the floor, I can monitor three patients at once and stagger them so that I check their machines, draw their labs, etc. at different times. On days when I’m in the office dealing with boss man, I can get several tasks done quickly if I organize them well, and still have time to post here as well (usually while on the phone.). I really don’t know how my coworkers do it, all I care about is that the end result is the same. It’s when their productivity drops that I take notice. Micromanagement doesn’t accomplish anything but piss them off, really. They don’t need me looking over their shoulders to make sure they’re doing what they should be; they’re adults. If they leave early or get here late, and their productivity numbers DON’T drop, then they’re getting the job done.

Well…you had me up until the last line. The company’s business, certainly. Yours? Why? Certainly you have the right to complain that his work deficiency is throwing more responsibility on you, but other than that…

Absolutely. I agree. Again, that goes back to the question: are they or are they not pulling their weight, and are you in a position to know that for certain? Hours worked does not necessarily translate to hours being productive.

106

Hi. I’m not a Mom. May I respond anyway? My kinds are 16 months apart. This meant that for a period of time, we owned a double stroller. The issues raised in the O.P. are a part of why we never considered owning a side-by-side stroller. I can carry a front/back double stroller up the elevated subway steps. Not so with a side/side stroller.

Then, there is the issue of real estate. One does make a LOT of folks slide aside when one is pushing a double wide. It seems …pushy?.. to stop suddenly when on a crowded sidewalk, and block 80 % of it.

Manners count. Sleep deprivation sucks. Entitlement? Not so much so. Methinks that a lot of these incidents happen and as soon as someone struggles to get by, the “offending” stroller-driver scoots it to the side, to be more polite. I defend the tunnel-vision aspect, but would say that it’s not over rudeness or entitlement.

I used a Gerry backpack for years, with both kids. Made life easier. One in a small stroller, one in the backpack. I miss those days. :slight_smile:

Cartooniverse

107

In my personal experience, when I have worked with the “primary care giver” (male or female) the case is that they do not pull their weight. This has over the years directly impacted me when I am covering for someone who has to leave early or come in late.

I am as wary as the next fellow about making generalizations based on personal experience, but it is clear from this thread that I am not alone in this happening so it is looking to me like we have a problem.

I know that having kids in important (what with the whole species survival thing and all), but we really need to take a look at what is involved and if it is realistic to expect a primary care giver to also hold down a full time job and be able to make things not suck for his or her co-workers.

108

I have seen more whining about this than I have actually seen evidence of it. In my experience, both as an employer and as an employee, parents make better workers, not worse - because they tend to be more mature, less likely to get into foolish trouble, and they really need the work - but unlike what you appear willing to do, I’m not really willing to make a policy of discrimination based on anecdotal evidence backed by confirmation bias.

However, let’s accept that this is a real problem, and that the childless or “non primary caregivers” are being unfairly screwed. What exactly do you suggest be done about it? Immediately fire all mommies and/or daddies? To “make things not suck” for fellow employees? WTF should an employer give a shit about that - unless you are willing to put your money where your mouth is and say “I’m quitting, I can’t stand being unfairly treated, see how you like trying to get work done here with a staff made up of parents, who by definition are not as valuable and productive as me”?

109

Malthus, What an interesting post.

I was, I believe, quite careful to mention that I was simply relating my personal experience and that I was, indeed, wary of generalizing on just that data point. I am also not clear as to how simply identifying a problem becomes “whining”, or why it is that I (you know, the guy that comes to work early and stays late because I am covering for the people with kids) should have to quit my job. It seems that you have had different experiences than other posters on that front, and more power to you. We should all be so lucky.

As to making discriminatory policy based on so-called confirmation bias, I think that you are being inflammatory on that point. I am not seeing anyone suggest that. How about we have one policy for everyone. Something like “show up on time and don’t go home early”?

In looking at what a real solution is (which somehow seems to be my responsibility because I had the nerve to state the problem), I would say that we really won’t have one until we have an economy where one person can be the sole “bread earner” for a family or where daycare is actually affordable. How we get there, I don’t know.

110

What, like “no wife of mine is gonna work”, type thing? :slight_smile: Marry me. I’ve been waiting for someone to say that to me forever.

111

I kind of thought that one of the points of having a society is we help each other. Maybe not immediately, there’s no quid pro quo, but eventually and as needed. Who knows but that your co-worker’s child, whose rearing you indirectly supported via carrying more than your weight (assuming that that is, in fact, happening) won’t grow up to discover the cure for whatever’s ailing your aging parents? Those runny nosed kids may be called into the Army someday, to defend your rights. They’re definitely going to be the ones responsible for wheeling your body around when you’re too old to do so yourself.

Omniscient, I described a few aspects of my life merely as an illustration. I know something about what your day is like, having worked for 22 years before becoming a mother; I’m quite certain that you have no idea what my life entails.

And in those 22 years of work experience, I never, ever worked anywhere where everybody had exactly the same output. We were all different.

That’s why I believe your central premise is wrong. I don’t think a roomful of Cray computers can come up with a perfect formula for ensuring that life is fair. Better to cut slack (judiciously, sure) than assume you’ve got it figured out.

112

Well, I’m not sure how else one would interpret “…we really need to take a look at what is involved and if it is realistic to expect a primary care giver to also hold down a full time job and be able to make things not suck for his or her co-workers” other than as a call for a policy to NOT have such persons hold down full time jobs BECAUSE they make thinks sucky for co-workers?

I label your position as “whining” because that is exactly what it is. To my mind, complaining and hoping that someone, somewhere will magically solve your problem of being taken advantage of, rather than making hard choices to help yourself, is a type of whining.

If indeed you are always the guy comming in early and working late (and of course I am assuming that you are entirely truthful in this description), you are doing more work for the same money than others, and are presumably getting screwed. Now, other than saying that there is no solution until “…we have an economy where one person can be the sole “bread earner” for a family or where daycare is actually affordable”, are you willing to actually do something about it? Ultimately, the only way an employee can protest unfair treatment which is not actually illegal in whatever jurisdiction, is to quit - something I have in fact done myself in the past, where I thought I was being taken advantage of.

Another way of doing the same, is to refuse to do any extra to cover the defaulters - and let them try to fire you for it.

If you won’t quit, and you won’t refuse to be taken advantage of, then suck it up and stop whining.

113

What’s stopping you from reading the part of my post in which I said I did point it out to their supervisor?

I’m not talking about their time off. I’m talking about the hours they are scheduled to be at work and are not actually there. The only thing I said about my off hours, when I am not scheduled to be at work, was in response to someone who said that I shouldn’t be expecting to leave work at my actual scheduled ending time because I have nothing more important than boozing to do.

Considering that they’re supposedly working on the same stuff I am as a team, I sure as hell do know who on the team isn’t pulling their own weight.

Yeah. If someone’s shirking job responsibility because of children, or bringing children into the office, the person who complains about the team member who isn’t pulling their weight or who’s causing the problem by bringing the kid to work is the one who gets their balls busted. That’s how it is here.

Well just as an example, I’m supposed to be working on my part of a network project here at work. I unfortunately can go no further on my part of the project until one of the slacking coworkers gets some information to me that it was their job to compile and write a report on. The report was supposed to be done yesterday. Guess who was an hour late yesterday and left an hour early? Not me. Guess who said it was because they had to ‘take the kids to school and then pick them up’? Not me. Guess why we’re now a full day behind on the project because someone was late again today? Yeah, again, not because of me.

I mentioned it to the boss. The response that I got was ‘Well, X has kids, so you’ve gotta cut her some slack. Can’t you do the report yourself?’

Set some kind of concrete limit on the amount of paid time off (like sick/vacation days) an employee can take in a year, how many times someone can be late or leave early before receiving a warning and how many before being terminated, and then stick to it no matter who the person is. Policy is the same for everyone. We don’t care why you’re taking your X days a year off, but X is all you get. Everybody’s treated the same under FMLA anyway, right?

So when Binarydrone and I are talking about specific problems with specific people at our jobs and the lack of help from management, we’re whining, but you’re free to make generalizations about people without children being less valuable workers in general and you think we’re the ones who want discriminatory practices?

How on earth is it discriminatory to set exactly the same rules for everyone and then enforce them for everyone?

And fessie, no matter what you say or how many times you say it, I am not going to kiss these coworkers’ asses for having kids or continually take on more than my share of work, and half of their share too, just because of what their kid might do some day. They are not special because they had kids.

114

I did. Like I said: go to HR. If your sup won’t fix it, go over his head. Chain of command, y’know? It works. Or you could, as I suggested, quit. You consistently derail threads with your endless complaints about how your inconsiderate coworkers who were thoughtless enough to have children force you to carry the burden of the entire department on your shoulders. And once again, that’s what this thread has turned into.

115

Malthus, Where is this bizarre hostility coming from? I said:

Bolding to assist reading comprehension.

I am not saying that we need to fire every one, I am not expecting my problems to be “magically solved”. All that I am doing is point out what I see as a problem.

When I ask if it is realistic to expect primary care-givers to work full time and be able to make things not suck for his or her co-workers, this is really not a loaded question. What I am saying is that in my personal experience and, it would seem, in the experience of other posters this is not a realistic expectation.

I am at a loss as to how identifying that there is a problem somehow becomes a synonym in your mind for whining and an open invitation for hostility and veiled accusations that I am being less than truthful in my posts. Are you one of the folks that people like me are always covering for? What is the vested interest here?

All that I am saying is that there should be one policy. I call it the come the fuck in when you are supposed to and stay the fuck at work until you are supposed to go home policy (although I am sure that the HR folks can pretty that up a bit). If you can’t do that, the burden should be on you to quit the job.

I will say that again, in a different way as you seem to not quite be getting that point of mine. I am advocating ONE policy that every employee should follow. Pretty simple, huh?

116

Except that’s not how it works in any company, as far as I’m aware. Supervisors determine what kind of latitude they’re willing to give to employees. If it’s a valuable employee who contributes, they’re more willing to give a bit on the rules. The onus is on the employer to tell the employee if their work isn’t acceptable, not the other way around. In what company anywhere do you hear anyone saying “Jeez, my numbers were really off last month. Frank, you should discipline me immediately.”?

And frankly, I’ve noticed people without children getting advancements and raises because “They’re here. They don’t run off to go to their kids’ open houses. They don’t have to make up time. You’re a good worker, sure, but … you just can’t put in those kinds of hours.” Works both ways.

117

Indeed. Considering what a magically special and perfect employee catsix is, she should have no trouble finding dozens of great job offers from companies desperate to gain her skills and presence in their office.

Something just doesn’t add up, as usual; I feel comfortable not taking her claims at face value.

I’ve had coworkers who have to take time off to deal with their kids. I mind my own goddamned business: it’s not my concern what arrangements they work out with the boss.

Daniel

118

All you really needed to bold is the “but”:

This is just quibbling. You say that you are “wary” about generalizations, and that is supposed to excuse you when you … go on to make generalizations?

I haven’t accused you of any dishonesty. I am sincere when I say I’m assuming you are being totally honest, not sarcastic. You are honestly getting screwed and honestly unwilling to do anything about it but whine.

When you say “it is not a realistic expectation” for caregivers to hold down a job (based on what? Your generalizations? A bunch of other posters’ generalizations?), one can only assume that you don’t think they ought do be holding down jobs.

And really, what business is it of yours what your employers are willing to tolerate from your fellow-employees? If they choose to treat 'em better than they are treating you, the door is open. I’d walk through it, and I have before.

That’s the point you don’t appear to be getting.

I’m not disagreeing with you that you have a “problem” - you are getting screwed. I am disagreeing with you that the problem is universal (that bit about generalizations and confirmation bias again!) and about what the solution to the problem is - namely, I think you should help yourself.

119

Malthus, OK. I get that you are not hearing me or that I am somehow not crafting my posts in a way that is making sense to you. Message received.

120

My boss is the president of the company. There is no board of directors because it’s a privately held company. And don’t suggest that I get another job. I’ve been attempting to do exactly that. I have to do something in the mean time.

As for the rest of your commentary, considering the subject of this thread being in considerate mothers, the worst ‘off track’ foul I’ve committed is including a couple of fathers that I work with in on that.

You want to Pit me? Go ahead.

Calling me a liar again? You have absolutely no proof that anything I’ve said is in any way untrue.

There’s a forum for discussing the poster rather than the issue. I’ve stayed on topic in this thread. Could you please do the same?

You’ve never seen someone who knew that they had fucked up or slacked off and then corrected the problem themselves? Ever?