I toyed with the idea of putting this in the Pit, but 1) I really don’t feel THAT strongly about it, and 2) I am more interested in this issue as an interpretive matter than as, you know, a federal case.
I tend to interpret the rolleyes smiley as an insult, and react accordingly. In my opinion, it’s a smarmy way to get around the “no insults outside the Pit” rule. It’s an insultingly superior way to thoughtlessly dismiss what another poster says. It’s usually a way to say “I don’t care to actually think about what you’ve posted, so here’s a blindly dismissive emoticon, followed by bloviation”.
That, to me, is insulting.
In a recent thread, a poster used the ol’ rolleyes on me, and I responded by barking back:
I realize that I’ll clearly be in the minority on this (and I expect I’ll get my share of rolleyes responses out of the usual internet wags), but I do not regard the above as a direct personal insult. It’s a snarly response to an insult, but no part of it contains a personal insult.
I was given an official warning for the above, which I regard as a bit ass-backwards.
See, that’s the thing. The rolleyes is hard-coded into the SDMB. It can be used at any time, by any poster, in any forum. What am I going to report? That a poster used an emoticon? No. I merely warned him that I was not going to ignore an implied dismissal of my opinion.
It’s identified as Sarcastic in the mouseover, and surely that’s allowed in every forum. If there were a problem smiley it would surely be this one. (Sticks out tongue). Although the humorous intent is so obvious that it would be difficult to take umbrage.)
I’m the one who issued the warning, so I’ll tell you what I was thinking, Ogre.
Personally, I’m not a big fan of the :rolleyes: smiley. But it’s been with us a long time, and smileys are generally accepted as a way to communicate what would be a facial expression or tone of voice in face-to-face communications. It’s fairly mild, although we’ve admonished people in the past for overusing them.
Telling someone to cram something up his/her ass, however, isn’t mild and isn’t subtle. While it isn’t an insult in the sense that “You’re stupid and your momma dresses you funny” is an insult, it still elevates things beyond where we want them in MPSIMS (where the thread in question began) or the Game Room (where it is now). That’s precisely what the Pit is for.
Oh, I know that’s why you issued me a warning. I knew when you issued it exactly why you did it. I merely disagree.
And since it’s all out in the open, I suppose I should provide further context that might have slipped by. This is perhaps the third sports thread in which Omniscient has pulled something like this on me. It goes like this: something fairly controversial happens in a sport I watch. Someone posts a thread. I post an opinion. Omniscient then gets all snarly with me.
I can’t remember where the other incidents were (and I don’t care to search them out), but here’s one from this past college football season:
This thread began with a discussion of Brandon Spikes’s now-infamous eye-gouging incident. I really didn’t think it was that huge a deal. The camera caught Spikes doing something that happens in every dogpile in the sport of football. It used to happen to me all the time, when I played. It doesn’t make him a wonderful sportsman, but it’s hardly unusual.
I posted:
Note that quixotic78 disagreed with me. That’s fine. No big deal. Then Omniscient posted:
This was not the first incident. Omni knows I’m an SEC fan, and he apparently holds it against me. I frankly have no idea who he roots for, but I guess he’s decided that my opinions are not even worth thinking about. Beats me, man. I don’t have anything in particular against the guy, but I’m a little fucking tired of all this friction I get from him.
Note that I don’t regard anything that happened above as rising to the level of needing moderation. It’s a small interpersonal issue, and I absolutely do NOT regard my responses as insults.
Forum-appropriate responses are very much a matter of interpretation. The standards and enforcement of those rules are wildly inconsistent, and you know it. Some people can seem to get away with whatever they want to, while others get smacked down for something relatively minor. It depends on who is moderating, at the very least. I have no problem with the mods as a group or on any individual level, but yeah, there’s some inconsistency around here.
Look at Wombat’s response in this thread. He acknowledges that my response is NOT a direct personal insult. It’s merely a shot across Omni’s bow that 1) I’m aware that he apparently has an issue with me, and that 2) he should address my posts for their content, rather than dismissing a perfectly valid opinion (with which, I’d point out, I’m getting quite a bit of agreement) with some kind of bullshit shorthand.
No, that’s not what I said. What I said was that it “isn’t an insult in the sense that “You’re stupid and your momma dresses you funny” is an insult.” I think the meaning and intent of the rule is pretty clear.
I also want to make clear that I have no particular issue with you, Ogre. If you used the report button, I’d happily jump in and tell your antagonist to back off. But once you go on the attack (and whether you call “shove it up your ass” a personal insult or not, there’s no question whatsoever that it’s a personal attack), the situation escalates.
Well, that’s why the title of the thread is “What’s the nature of a personal insult?” I look at my response, and I see no personal insult at all. I see the actual insult being given earlier. shrug I also don’t see “escalation” as being a warnable offense (another one of those moderative grey-areas). I have been here a long time. I know how things work. If Omni had pursued the matter, I likely would have taken it to the Pit (or largely ignored him thereafter, as I did in the above-referenced college football thread).
Never ceases to amaze me that someone would post something like what Ogre posted and then come in here not to clarify the rolleyes smiley (ostensibly the raison d’etre of the thread), but to argue that he shouldn’t have been warned. :rolleyes:
Use of :rolleyes: is not an insult any more than asserting that, “your argument is meritless, and here is why: …” is an insult. :rolleyes: is directed at the content of the words being discussed. It can be over-used (I admit to this foible, and sometimes think better of it far too long after the edit window has closed ), and certainly it isn’t going to make the person towards whom it is directed feel good, or treat what you say with calm consideration. But a personal attack it is not.
Further, even if it were, it’s not relevant for the purpose of condoning one’s own intemperate response to the use of :rolleyes:. If you have an objection to something someone says, whether in the words they use, or the tone of those words, or the use of ANY smiley which, in the circumstances, is crossing some line, report the post and then walk away until you can deal with it in a better frame of mind. I have reported numerous questionable posts here, on the theory that the moderators can sort out what really needs to be addressed (wheat from chaff, so to speak), but cannot do their job if people are unwilling to forward questionable postings to their attention. I’ve never had a moderator yet say to me in email or pm: “You stupid idiot, that’s not worth reporting, what are you nuts?? :rolleyes:”
As such, it appears that someone using one in response to a comment you made is not carte blanche
to break the actual rule against insults outside of the pit.
I don’t understand why you guys are so incredulous. We’ve had this conversation before about how insulting we’re allowed to get. And we were told that “calling someone a name” is the bright line. Ogre did not cross that line. Ergo he challenges that he was punished improperly.
It’s a concequence of subjective rules. It’s a fine line figuring out how to insult people without breaking them. Ordinarily I’d say you shouldn’t try to insult people at all, but it’s really, really hard when you see people being insulted all the time.*
And if you personally feel insulted, but know it doesn’t break the rules, reporting is useless, as nothing will happen. And you also don’t want to start a fight, which is what will happen in the Pit. And figuring out what you can and cannot say in a PM is difficult with the moderators going back and forth on whether anything can be done about them.
So I perfectly understand someone responding as he did. Still, his best bet would have been to report, not for the smiley, but for the fact that he believed the guy was following him around to insult his opinion.
I also must point out my usual stance that anything not explicitly against the rules should get a mod note first. It’s not fair giving a warning for a rule you haven’t laid out.
*I’ve personally done it a few times. I’m an odd duck in that I tend to feel insults at someone else that I can remotely connect with as strong as I feel them towards myself. If I see someone being a jerk, but I know the mods won’t feel same way, I find it very hard not to be just as jerky back.
And that’s where Ogre went wrong. He escalated. You’ve got to respond in kind to get your insults off without getting modded.
), and certainly it isn’t going to make the person towards whom it is directed feel good, or treat what you say with calm consideration. But a personal attack it is not.