I’m asking for the connection between being able to “stand up for yourself” and “outcussing someone.” Why is that necessary?
Maybe so, but I don’t have any sympathy for the “nebbishy guy next door” if he doesn’t make an attempt to be more interesting/appealing. Anyone can have confidence, which is a start. And I certainly have zero sympathy for someone who has a reasonable salary and is still a boring dork. Why not get a unique vehicle instead of a 2007 Ford Taurus? You can afford it, for God’s sake. (And I’m not saying that everyone should have a '67 fastback Mustang. A slightly worn Saab 900 might suit you better.) Why not wear some nice shirts and a decent pair of leather shoes instead of cheap sneakers? Why not get into music or art so that you can have something interesting to talk about with people?
Be an interesting person, instead of just thinking that you’re one - that’s how to succeed, whether it be with the opposite sex or just making new friends.
Excellent point, and definitely one of the things that’s poisoned me against the self-identifying “nice guys.” Many of the ones I’ve met think they’re awesome and a great catch, and put no effort into actually being, y’know, interesting. Or even grooming themselves in such a way as to be attractive. Instead, they get bitter and act like jerks because “that’s what women want.”
No, it just so happens that some so-called jerks are more interesting. Plus, much like any woman getting more sex than you is a slut, any man getting more sex than you is automatically a jerk. A lot of the guys I’ve known who were called jerks by the “nice guys” weren’t really any more jerkish than any other guy I’d known. They were somewhat arrogant, but nothing outrageously, horribly ill-mannered.
I think you’re over-focusing on the fact that there was swearing involved. Had the abuse been returned without swearing the outcome would likely have been the same.
Or more accurately, we should find out what you think is interesting, and talk about that. The things we think are interesting to talk about clearly aren’t. :dubious:
If that were the case, I’d think no straight person on the planet could get a date. A lot of women could stand to take this advice as well–in fact, women can be downright awful about this–but the OP was asking about why people think women like total bastards. So, this is part of it.
Using the general “you” here: Being able to see things from someone else’s perspective and trying to engage her interests as well as your own and seeking out common ground isn’t exactly an unreasonable thing to ask of somebody. Engaging in true conversation (rather than talking about yourself and your interests alone without trying to find out what the other party might prefer to talk about) is a great way to quickly bore someone to death. You haven’t done anything particularly awful, though, except be boring, and so are probably going to get a dumping speech along the lines of, “You’re nice, but…” or “It’s not you, it’s me” or “I think of you like a friend.” It’s meant to not hurt feelings, but instead it leaves the impression that “nice” was the problem rather than “socially insensitive.” Note that these lines might be used for other reasons, too, and aren’t really code so much as generic.
I’m not really sure what men do when they’re faced with someone who bores the hell out of them, but surely it’s not a problem that only women suffer. It’s just that trying to let the guy down easy can make it appear that you’re dumping him for something that has nothing to do with reality.
I’ve never agreed with that statement. A**holes aren’t particularly confident. If anything, I’d wager that they often act that way in order to mask their own insecurities.
As a female friend of mine once said, “A lot of women say that they know confidence when they see it. They’re wrong. What they see is the illusion of confidence that jerks tend to project.”
Um, because some people would rather be practical and frugal? Being able to afford something doesn’t mean that one should go out and buy it.
“Uh huh…uh huh…uh huh…nice shoes!”
Stranger
:smack:
It is a miracle that straight people manage to reproduce ourselves.
I’m focusing on the apparent assertion by Nava that she would conclude that her hypothetical future mate would not be “able to care for” himself, the children, or the family pets absent a proficiency for being able to verbally insult a stranger (regardless of whether the abuse includes profanities or obscenities). How is a proficiency with verbal duelling necessary for things like (1) holding down a paying job, (2) dealing with household tasks and chores, (3) getting the kids dressed, fed, and off to school, (4) saving pets from a burning building, or (5) any task that might fall under the heading “taking care of oneself or others”?
If someone is insulted, how is (for example) just silently walking away equivalent to “not being able to care for oneself”?
It may very well be a cultural difference here, but if so, I’m looking for a more detailed explanation.
I agree wholeheartedly!
I think you wrote the reverse of what you meant 
Remove the parenthetical bit and you’ve got “Engaging in true conversation … is a great way to quickly bore someone to death.”
If you indeed meant the reverse, I agree wholeheartedly. I used to have fascinating conversations with a young woman in whom I was interested, in which I mostly listened with great interest to what she wanted to talk about. She seemed to think I was a wonderful conversationalist 
But the topics of discussion were things that interested us both, so I was able to easily add my own opinions when called for and didn’t have to stand there looking like a dope while she did all the work.
I honestly think she was as interested in me as I was in her, at least until she discovered our age difference. She was unusually mature for her age and her interests led to her socializing with people much older than herself; since I was younger than her usual crowd, it took a while to register that I was still quite a bit older than her. She looked like somebody had walked up and punched her in the stomach when she finally discovered I’m 17 years older than her 
Anyway, I responded as I did to ArgentTowers because her statement seemed to suggest that we “nice guys” must spend our spare time sitting around staring at the walls, since we don’t have anything “interesting” to talk about. When the fact is some of us have any number of interesting topics we can discuss in depth and at length. Art? I own an extensive collection of sequential art that includes the works of many respected masters. Music? I’ve been proficient on a number of different instruments and have performed in the genres of pop, rock, heavy metal, rap, big band jazz, blues, dixieland, classical, and others. I’ve composed a number of my own pieces in a number of styles, as well as arranged popular songs for a big band. (Yet, I believe music is for listening to, not talking about.) Literature? I’m well read in fantasy and science fiction, and mystery, and also have an interest in historical pieces, but I’m afraid the kind of books that end up on the bestseller lists (Grisham, Clancy, et al, The DaVinci Code) don’t do much for me. And we never run out of things to talk about in my Dungeons & Dragons and anime groups 
Now, who got voted off American Idol or Survivor this week? Hell if I know, I don’t watch TV
It’s occurred to me that this is much like what my mom used to do when I was a grade school kid. I was, admittedly, socially inept in school. As a result, I was an easy target for bullies and other “cool” kids who would attempt to increase their own status by demeaning the “dweeb”. So Mom’s response to this was not something helpful like trying to help improve my social skills. Rather, it was to reassure me that I was only getting picked on because “They’re just jealous because you’re so smart!” That statement and “You’re a nice guy” can both be paraphrased as “Sure, nobody likes you, but you’re perfect the way you are. Don’t change.”
D’oh! I think I must have started to write two completely different sentences there and somehow morphed them together into absolute nonsense. Sorry about that. Yes, I did mean the reverse.
Well, after going over your list of interests I think you sound quite fascinating and do indeed have a lot to talk about. I think there should be a distinction between what I’d call the self-identifying “nice guys” and people who are truly, honestly nice people who are male. Unfortunately, there’s a breed out there who are very emotionally manipulative and clingy and give a bad name to nice guys everywhere. Those are the ones I’ve had bad experiences with. They lack social skills and blame their problems on others. Often they’re submissively fawning over women while at the same time being very misogynstic. A lot of my female friends have also had bad experiences with this type, but from the things you’ve written I’d hardly think you were one of those types.
(Likewise about the not watching TV, for what it’s worth. Perhaps I’m the one who should work on being interesting…nah.)
It’s definitely true that there are women who aren’t going to find any of your interests at all interesting. Generally, that’s because they have a pretty narrow range of interests, and that’s definitely not a flaw limited to one gender. Oy, no, it’s universal.
Very good point about your mother. Trying to bolster somebody’s self-confidence when it comes to things like that isn’t terribly helpful, and it also rings pretty hollow. As hard as it can be to hurt someone’s feelings, it probably would be better all around if we were all honest when it comes to these things.
“You declared your love for me on the second date and it creeped me out. Sorry.” “You eat with your mouth open and I can’t imagine ever having sex with you.” “You’re just a little weird when it comes to social skills and I can’t deal with it.” Hurtful, yes, but at least it would give us a chance to figure out what was done wrong.
CarlyJay, my sister, has a friend who claims to be a “nice” guy who can’t get dates because girls go for “jerks.” He finally got a date, and reported to her that the girl was really boring. So she asked him if he knew anything about her, and he didn’t know a thing. He’d never asked her any questions about herself - never asked her if she had pets, or liked music, or about her family or her job or anything. He’d talked about himself for two hours and couldn’t understand why she didn’t see what a nice guy he was.
That said, it works the other way. A friend of mine had a cousin who she kept telling me was really nice, couldn’t understand why she was single. “And she’s beautiful!” my friend complained. I figured, yeah, sure, she probably looks like a doberman. She obviously wanted me to meet her and I did, at a party, and holy SHIT this girl was gorgeous. I mean, absolutely jaw-dropping, beautiful face, heart-stopping body, and a Latin sense of style (she was Colombian), the works. My friend arranged it so I’d walk her home and I was overjoyed.
It took 20 minutes to walk her home and felt like twenty years. She talked about herself nonstop, and it wasn’t the good kind of talking about yourself where you have some funny stories to tell, it was a stream-of-consciousness babble of unadulterated idiocy that betrayed an almost paralyzing self-centric cluelessness. She must have though I was a great listener, because the soul-crushing monotony of her voice droning on had me partially hypnotized. I understood why she was single. And at least as far as I was concerned it stayed that way.
Well, what do you do? I’m sure it’s much the same thing.
A used Saab 900, Volvo V740, or Honda CRX costs far less than a new Taurus - and has 2,000 times the character. If you’re going for the rugged lifestyle, a used K5 Blazer or Toyota Land Cruiser costs far less than a new Nissan XTerra, and has 2,000 times the character. Not everyone is into vehicles and not every woman is attracted to them - but in my experience, having a unique vehicle with character is appealing to women. But this is just one example of one thing that someone can do to make himself more interesting. It’s not about cost, not at all. It’s about taking the time to make a unique statement about yourself.
On the topic of clothes, most of the best-dressed people I know shop at Goodwill.
Clothes and vehicles and all that may be ultimately shallow things to care about, but there’s no question that they can make you seem less boring. And good taste doesn’t cost a dime. Like I said, the best stuff can always be found used at low prices if you take the initiative to look.
Phase42, I’m a guy. Heh. But I think you’ve misunderstood what I’m getting at. I’m not saying that being a nice guy is a bad thing. I’m not saying that it makes you boring. For the record, I don’t agree with the “meme” being discussed here. I think nice guys can and do succeed, if they have confidence and take the initiative to make themselves desirable, in whatever way they choose.
What I don’t have sympathy for is someone who doesn’t try - doesn’t try to be confident, doesn’t try to strike up conversations, doesn’t try to expand his horizons, get hobbies, join clubs, etc - and still whines, “I’m interesting and nice, so why don’t any girls like me?”
In many cases, it seems that boys and girls are growing up with the same twisted definition of masculinity. The “twist” being that aggression equals confidence.
I have taken issue lately with the Aggressive Male as a cultural phenomenon. One of my biggest gripes right now is that a man cannot venture into the public realm and interact with other men without it resulting in a childish pissing match. It bears an uncanny resemblance it to the animal kingdom. And it always leaves me wondering how the absurd levels of aggression impress anyone.
I wholeheartedly agree. And I think the Nice Guy’s “girl of his dreams” would not, in fact, be the “girl of his dreams” if she is so dull that she needs an asshole boyfriend in order to compensate for her own shortcomings.
I wish I was more aware of that while I was younger. The Fantasy Girl whom I admired from afar did not have a personality at all similar to that of the fantasy. However, I still think that extreme beauty is often wasted on otherwise painfully dull women. I reckon the same could be said of men.
My sister dumped a great guy and married an asshole. The nice guy was a dance instructor, had a motorcycle, but was kind of shy and a bit nerdy. She dumped him because he didn’t project “strength.” The guy she married had no hesitation to insult people --including our parents-- and she just thought the world of him. Even after years of explosive temper tantrums in front of our family and a mysterious black eye that she now denies ever existed, she still speaks of her marriage as something to be proud of, and any mention of that ex-boyfriend gets her going on and on about how “weak” he was. Frankly, I think she was bothered most of all by his low income potential. My brother and I see her husband as fragile because of how desperately he tries to insult people. After all these years, my sister hasn’t clued up on how much of a sissy she married.
Oops, sorry about that :smack:
Well, then we’re mostly in agreement 
heh Did you catch the movie School for Scoundrels? This guy’s teaching a class on building confidence, and the class is filled with guys whose lives are going nowhere. During the first session he asks, “How many of you guys are losers?” Every hand in the class goes up (hey, they all know why they’re there). “WRONG!” shouts the teacher. “A loser is somebody who tried and failed. You’re a bunch of pussies who are too scared to even try!”
Of course on the flip side, what he actually taught them in the class was how to be the “total bastards” the OP is talking about …
I don’t know about you, cobber, but most non-goldbricking women I’ve met could pretty much care less what you’re driving or indeed, even pay attention to the make and model, so long as it’s clean, in good repair, and you don’t drive like a maniac. Selecting a car to attract a woman has to be one of the most useless lures ever, unless the car is a Porsche Boxster and the woman is vapid enough to totally succomb to instinctual mating pressures.
But apart from this particularly unfortunate example, Argent Towers has a point; “nice” guys are frequently bland and uninteresting to the point of sacrificial boredom. Some guy who has enough going on in his life that he really knows nor cars about how women are mistreating him (and therefore doesn’t drone on endlessly on the topic) is far more attractive and appealing. He’s got something to talk about, and more importantly, something to share (or not, if interests don’t match); either way, there’s something to evaluate him about, instead of counting his nosehairs or speculating on the ways his parents totally screwed him up to be like this.
Stranger
I don’t think I’m being understood here - when I talk about a unique vehicle, I’m not talking about a status symbol. I’m not talking about a shiny new “lure” that golddigging women will see as a sign of wealth. I’m just talking about a vehicle with character, something that is a novelty to ride in. A lot of girls really dig it if their man has a ride that stands out from the herd. A rugged, broken-in 4x4, if you’re the right kind of guy, can add a whole level of adventure to a summer drive out in the country that a Ford Taurus could never hope to.
Well then, go back to my explanation for it in post #58. Sometimes parenting requires stepping in when someone weaker than you needs your support in a confrontation. When that time comes, will you do that, or will you “silently walk away”?
Not standing up for yourself, in this case, leaves others with no reason to believe that you would ever stand up for them.