I think you’re just asking about the distinction between shaming and criticizing. Shaming is a particular kind of criticizing that is intended to create embarrassment, especially to the extent that whatever act is being shamed was engaged in enthusiastically.
Both agreeing with Napier and adding the “shaming” is associated with people you interact with personally. The actors and actresses you mention don’t care what you think about them.
Personally, I think it’s not shaming unless 1) the comments are somewhat public (criticizing someone, however harshly, isn’t shaming if it’s just the two of you behind closed doors); and 2) the target of your remarks is aware of them, or there is a reasonable possibility that they may become aware of them. (Thus, saying something negative about a celebrity who has no idea you exist is not shaming, unless maybe the actual target is somebody other than the celebrity, e.g. you’re trying to make someone you know personally feel bad about their own weight or appearance by making pointed remarks about celebrities.)
That said, the term “shaming” seems to get thrown around pretty casually these days, to the point where it’s moving into “who knows what this even means any more” territory.
That’s EXACTLY what I’m asking. In fact, that is what I tried to convey in the topic name.
So it’s the intention of the criticizer that makes it into shaming?
I dunno. I see stories about actresses/performers (that I never heard of) being shamed for putting on weight. Or occasionally being shamed for being too thin.
It depends on the actual audience. If it’s to your friends and none of them have related issues, it’s not shaming. If any of them are very invested in the mentioned issue, even if they don’t deal with it themselves, they might still consider it shaming, but they’d be wrong.
If it’s a public forum of any sort, it’s shaming. Not because you necessarily think this of anyone who puts on forty pounds or changes their nose, but because there are so many who do and are vocal about it. Your comment would contribute to that chorus, no matter your intent.
That said, I don’t think “Mary Lou dyed her hair blond, but I think she was more attractive as a brunette.” really counts in any setting. People change their hair color back and forth all the time and to the extent there is a societal bias against dying your hair blond pales in comparison with fat shaming and shaming people for doing plastic surgery.
This is all my opinion of course, and I’m sure it could be said that water cooler talk of heavier actresses becoming unattractive contributes to an overall societal tone of “fat is bad”, but for the issues mentioned, this is where I’d draw the line.
IMO “shaming” is a counter-criticism of you, the criticiser. Asserting that by your criticism you are applying a hurtful label to a class, of which the individual you criticize is simply a hapless member. One on one vs. 3rd party doesn’t matter, audience doesn’t matter, celebrity vs. ordinary schlub doesn’t matter.
Example:
When @LSLguy says “At 250+ lbs Roseann Barr is a disgusting pig lacking in basic self control”, then Suzy RandomPerson will pipe up with “But that’s fat shaming!”
Meaning that in Suzy’s view, @LSLGuy has just offended fat people at large, and he is wrong to do so. In Suzy’s view he has tried to apply “shameful” as an judgmental attribute to something, fatness, that (in Suzy’s view) is not in fact shameful and should instead be thought of by everyone as utterly neutral or even positive.
See also “victim blaming”. Which charge is sometimes leveled quite legitimately at some critics. And at other times is used to deflect accurate criticism of (mostly) self-inflicted harms and to silence future critics and criticisms of the same poor decisions.
Shaming is an attempt to publicly punish someone for behavior you feel is against societal norms, creating peer pressure on that person either to reform, or just for the sake of punishment. “She gained 20 pounds so is no longer attractive.” It is the analogy of putting someone in the pillory in the public square for humiliation for immoral behavior.
Criticism is an observation that does not imply a moral value judgment. “That shirt is an ugly color.”
However, there are some people who may disagree on what the societal norms are, or at least should be. Pointing out that someone is overweight is more than just criticism because you feel they have violated a societal norm that you can’t be both attractive and overweight. However, that norm is very much called into question these days, therefore such a criticism is called “fat shaming.”
As we learn more about how certain behaviors arise we understand that some behavior isn’t completely under the control of the person (e.g., drug addiction). We also have shifting norms (women don’t have to be a size 2 to be attractive).
One of the things with shaming is that it isn’t just to criticize the direct target, it’s to keep everyone else in line. It has the indirect (but often much stronger) set of messages “Don’t be like them.” and “If you are like them, you deserve public revilement, too.”
I’m puzzled because I think everyone is wrong so far! [ ETA: sorry, I had not taken in @LSLGuy 's comment - obviously I don’t disagree with him! ]
I think when commentary is criticized as “xxx-shaming” that is expressing a view that the commentator was at fault because it is wrong to deprecate that characteristic, ever.
The two most prominent examples are fat-shaming and slut-shaming. And the point of describing commentary that way is to express the view that there’s nothing inherently wrong with being fat; and that there’s nothing wrong with a woman being sexually active.
“Stop slut shaming” means “don’t call women sluts, ever, because that criticism is based on an ill-conceived sexist view that there’s something wrong with women being sexually active”.
I think if it can be inferred that the reason she is now unattractive is because she’s fat, and by extension that all fat people are unattractive, then, yes, I feel it’s shaming.
It’s very hard to judge out of context. If you have a history of finding some fat women attractive and others not, then it’s less likely to be deemed as shaming. But if the above quote is the only thing I have to go by, I would likely judge it as shamng.
a certain actress doesn’t give a shit what thelmaLou thinks of her. nor should thelmaLou care what anyone cares about her. or anyone else. or what other people think about other people. its a free country.
