From David Sedaris’ hilarious essay “Standing By:”
“I should be used to the way Americans dress when travelling, yet still it manages to amaze me. It’s as if the person next to you had been washing shoe polish off a pig, then suddenly threw down his sponge, saying, “Fuck this. I’m going to Los Angeles!””
Guess I’m going to be “that guy”… There is no reason we should observe any “formalities”.
I hate to go all semantics / definitions, but in my mind a formality carries no compelling reason other than tradition. And as the guy said so aptly in Game of Thrones, “Fuck tradition.”
Wearing a hat in a restaurant affects nobody else, so there’s no reason it should be stigmatized. At a sporting or theater event a tall hat could block someone’s view, in which case it should be a matter of courtesy not to wear it. But that’s not the same thing. Something real is at stake there. Maybe the formality of not wearing a hat indoors stems from that very situation, but I don’t think it should bleed over into areas where there’s no purpose.
Someone mentioned turn signals earlier. I don’t think that’s at all the same thing. There are safety reasons everybody should be using turn signals, having nothing to do with politeness or formality.
I’ll go a step further. Formality gets us in trouble. Look at all the pomp and circumstance that accompanies everything politicians do. To some extent, I believe that formality enables incompetent, mean spirited people to masquerade as public servants. Oh, but we have to “respect the office”. Fuck that - just because the guy wears a suit and everyone is expected to stand up when he walks in doesn’t mean he isn’t a moron.
Same goes for the fetish we seem to have about uniforms. In my job we have to wear uniforms, and some people will get uptight about how well you wear it (did you use the right knot for the tie, is the insignia positioned exactly correctly). While there is a reason to identify people in some jobs, the formality attached to uniforms is misplaced. Why? Because I’ve known a few too many people who wore their uniform perfectly, but were otherwise incompetent.
To hell with formality.
I was unaware that had ever gone away. It’s just simple courtesy to not let a door shut in someone’s face.
I’d be happy with simply: Don’t stand in a doorway talking to your friends while people are trying to get in/out.
Except that it didn’t, traditionally, apply to women; who in most circumstances were supposed to be wearing hats, and to keep hats on indoors.
It’s been kind of odd for me to read through this thread and see all those comments about hats which seem to assume that the issue, traditionally, applied to everybody. Are the posters assuming that everyone is male, or do many people no longer remember that part of the custom?
I was wondering that myself.
The rationale I remember hearing is that a hat is part of a woman’s costume, but I don’t remember why it wasn’t considered so for a man. Maybe it was that men weren’t for some reason supposed to think of how their items of apparel went together – too “unmanly” maybe.
But then there were instances where women were required to wear a hat, or at least have their head covered. Up to the late 1960s or so, no woman went into a Catholic church without some kind of head covering. They used to sell “chapel veils” – a round of lace maybe 7 inches in diameter that a woman would carry in her purse and then bobby-pin to the top of her head. Sometimes a woman would have neither a hat or scarf or chapel veil and would bobby-pin a kleenex to the top of her head. I guess every woman had a bobby pin in her handbag.
Yeah men wearing hats indoors is one of those weird “formalities” that only exists because it existed. There is nothing about it that actually affects anyone else in a negative or positive way, it’s not dirty, it’s got nothing to do with hygiene or politeness. It makes no sense whatsoever to get annoyed at hats indoors. It’s like getting annoyed at someone at another table because they used the wrong fork.
I think part of it is because it doesn’t entirely apply any more. You hardly ever see women wearing hats that are part of the outfit anymore, and I’m not entirely sure that women were ever supposed to keep baseball caps or winter hats on indoors.
The whole wearing a hat indoors discussion is interesting to me. In that I find that I do not have a negative reaction to seeing many types of head coverings worn indoors in more formal/less casual settings. I see men from non-Christian cultures wearing head coverings and I don’t think twice about it. I would even say that the knit beanie hipster fashion doesn’t really get a rise out of me. But, for some reason, ball-cap style (or trucker style - same same) in non-casual settings gets the side-eye from me.
Comments such as this impress me a reflecting a terribly selfish attitude of someone who feels the people they share public spaces with are owed no courtesy. So if I want to talk and text through the movie, stop at the top of the escalator, walk/drive slowly on the left, blast my car stereo so it can be heard a block a way - if my behavior annoys other people, that’s THEIR problem.
And redcanoe - is it you or the “other people” who get to decide what “truly bothers” them?
Not at all, I’m saying there’s a difference between courtesy and formality.
I am a big believer in being courteous - holding doors, saying please and thank you, etc. But I feel these things serve a real purpose in our interactions with people. Whereas I see formality as rules for the sake of rules, often based on pointless tradition, which in the end are completely arbitrary and serve no real purpose.
Most of these things don’t bother me, but I do get a bit judgmental at folks wearing pajamas out in public. I really shouldn’t, as sweatpants don’t bug me and they’re not that far off essentially, but they still irk me.
Formality is being courteous to people who have a different understanding as to what is courteous.
For instance, you say that saying please and thank you are courtesies that you believe in. Why? They are just formalities, rules for the sake of rules. Just because you don’t think that a particular formality serves a real purpose in interacting with others doesn’t mean that others do think that it does.
Hence, formalities, a set of behaviors that not everyone agrees are necessary, but everyone agrees to abide by because no one agrees on what all the necessary behaviors are.
Some formalities are pretty dated and obsolete, and there really is no one who still thinks that they are necessary or serve a purpose, and those can certainly go by the wayside(and some that were useless from their inception). But unilaterally declaring that you don’t think that a behavior is necessary is pretty much the opposite of being courteous.
The colors indicate where they work and what they do. Nurses much prefer scrubs. And they used to hate those little hats.
Again, I hesitate to slow any discussion with definitions and semantics, but I just see a difference between courtesy and formality.
Saying please and thank you isn’t just formality for the sake of rules. It has real effects on people in the world. If I say “good morning” to the cashier at the grocery store as I begin putting my purchases on the belt (which I do) I’m potentially having an actual effect on the person. I’m acknowledging their presence, that they are a person and not part of the machinery of the store.
In my mind, that courtesy is responding to a person in the real world, for real reasons. Hats in public, or wearing a tie to various occasions is very different in my mind. When I think of what it means to be formal, it rarely has anything to do with reality. It’s following rules for the sake of rules. If we got rid of neckties, I don’t see how it would be a slight on anyone (except maybe those who make and sell them, but even then it’s not personal).
I 'm not sure I understand what you’re saying. The actions you mentioned affect others directly.
We all need to think about how our behavior impacts others, and be respectful. Keep your noise or smoke to yourself, and I’ll do the same. At the grocery store when I need to look at my list I try to move out of the way of others, not block the aisle.
However, a person wearing a hat in a restaurant, or putting their elbows on the table doesn’t really affect you.To claim otherwise is selfish and an attempt at controlling others.
I dunno, my local theater no longer has a box office, but the kiosks where you purchase tickets still spit out paper tickets.
Do you turn the phone off–no lights, alerts, or other noises when you enter the actual screening room? If so, no problem.
Also, get off my lawn. 
Right, like I said, courtesies are things that you appreciate and feel have a real effect, and formalities are ones that you don’t.
Yes, you are doing so by observing those formalities. There is no functional or physical benefit to doing so, the only reason to do so is to make another person feel more comfortable with your presence. I’ve been a cashier, and while I do appreciate the few customers who say please and thank you, I’m not offended or felt to be dehumanized by the majority of people who do not.
Those are just as arbitrary. If you would make people feel uncomfortable by wearing a baseball cap to church, or by wearing a t-shirt to a funeral, then you should avoid making them uncomfortable by doing so. No different from please and thank you.
Sometimes, the entire point of a formality is to show respect by going out of your way to meet arbitrary and capricious standards. Taking off your ball cap when you go inside doesn’t serve a function, but what it does serve to do is to show that you have enough respect that you would do so anyway.
Many years ago, I hated small talk. Detested it absolutely. I would get angry when people would engage me on trite and trifling matters, wasting my time. If there was not a useful exchange of information, I really didn’t want to take part. Then I had an epiphany, small talk is the carrier wave upon which further communication can be built. Same with formalities, they are the pointless and useless bits of agreed behaviors upon which the foundations of civilization are built.
I agree to disagree.
While my thread title uses the word “formalities” (in quotes, no less), my not overly long OP asked,
So what - if any - rules or expectations regarding public behavior/interaction do you favor? What sorts of public behaviors do you interpret as showing a lack or (sic) courtesy or poor manners?
So is ignoring the clear intention of a proposition - or mischaracterizing it for one’s own purposes, overly “informal”, “discourteous”, or something else? 