Crikey Morelin, I would have told the parent why I had done what I did - you worked there and had every right to tell the child what to do.
My neighbours lack of parenting skills drives me crazy.
Both parental units’ methods of control merely require yelling ‘fuck off’ to any one of their 4 or 5 children (haven’t worked out the number yet). So guess what the older kids tell the younger kids? with an added whack of course and the youngest, who barely talks, when playing rough and tumble games runs around yelling ‘fuuuuucckk, cuuuuuunt’. The other day a happy little boy was heard singing what can only be described as a ‘fuck song’. It was the only word in his made up tune.
I once heard one of the neighbours yelling ‘fuck off’ etc, and said to noone in particular, ‘do you kiss your mother with that mouth’, my SO heard and informed me that it was the mother!
Yesterday I told them off three times for running through my garden, trashing the plants and jumping over the fence. Each time, the oldest girl’s response was initially total denial, then pointing to the littlest one saying ‘he did it!’ I asked them nicely each time and explained why I had a problem with them crushing my plants. Then they got into the recycling, took the bag all the paper recycling was in, chucking all the paper on the path. I saw them with the bag and went out. Again it was ‘I didn’t do it’ but the little boy pointed to the quickly disgarded bag under one of the dead cars on the front lawn. I asked if it was the bag she wanted, and she said yes, so I gave it to her and asked her to ask me next time because she’d left rubbish everywhere.
When I looked up, the Dad was there, had been watching the whole thing, but done nothing.
I guess, at least he may have learned a method other than ‘fuck off’, he didn’t tell me off for telling the kids what to do, he may just not know how else to deal with kids
Now that’s funny. Warms the heart…
Actually, there’s a practical reason for this.
Back in post-WWII period, the number of traffic accidents and fatalities involving pedestrians and bicycles in collisions with cars began to skyrocket, as cars became common possessions and traffic volume increased in conjunction with the baby boom. The number of people, especially children, being killed by automobiles was MUCH, much higher than it is today, relative to population. It was carnage.
So in the late 1940s and 1950s, schools in conjunction with police forces and safety organizations began to create traffic safety programs aimed at children, using methods children could absirb - cartoon characters teaching lessons, basic, easy-to-remember rules of safety, stuff like that. Anyone born from 1950 on can probably remember safety lectures and games when they were in elementary school; around here, it was Elmer the Safety Elephant, who had Elmer’s Rules, and we drew pictures and stuff about Elmer and the things he told us to do. It was through these programs that the basic rules of traffic safety came to exist that all kids learn, stuff like:
- Look both ways before you cross the street
- Don’t run when crossing the street
- Walk your bike across busy intersections
These programs were astonishingly effective - traffic fatalities involving children in most jurisdictions were literally reduced to a fraction of previous levels wherever these programs were introduced. In Toronto, where Elmer debuted, fatalities involving children were reduced by 44 percent in eight months in a period of time when the cars on the road went up ten percent. Results across Canada and the United States were equally amazing. Even more lives were saved when the basic principles were applied to other forms of safety education, such as fire prevention and evacuation. The simple fact is that nobody had ever done anything about teaching kids traffic safety; the impact of a concerted education program was remarkable.
Okay, so why is it getting worse? (And it IS getting worse. Not nearly as bad as it used to be, but a bit worse.) Simply put, these programs have been cut back and in some cases have fallen off the wayside. Most jurisdictions still have traffic safety programs, but they don’t spend nearly as much time on it, so kids aren’t having the basic rules drilled into them as hard, and for that matter neither are adults. In large cities the problem is worsened by large immigrant populations, who are often comprised of people who have never been exposed to safety programs like that and might not even be familiar with North American traffic, and if their KIDS aren’t learning it either, the message doesn’t get through.
Basically, people are acting stupidly because we cut the funding that teaches them not to.
Sorry for the hijack.
Regarding reprimanding other people’s kids:
My mother’s style of discipline was “I’m only going to warn you 14,00 more times and then there’s a remote chance I might get serious!” Which is not to say she never disciplined us, just that it was inconsistent and confusing. I think she meant well but didn’t know what she was doing.
Anyway, I was very bratty one year when I was on a trip with her girl scout troop. Nothing along the lines of setting the woods on fire or putting rattlesnakes in people’s cots–it was mostly being a smart mouth who thought the rules weren’t made for her. My mother didn’t say anything to me but another leader did basically tell me to be quiet and quit being such a brat. My mother heard this–and didn’t intervene. I think she was actually relieved that someone had the nerve to tell me I wasn’t the center of the universe.
Of course I was furious with this woman for daring to reprimand me and I actually told people I would kill her, though oddly enough I was on good terms with the woman’s daughter even after the incident–I remember her cheerfully asking me several months later “Do you still want to kill my mother?” I was surprised that I didn’t get much sympathy from my own mother (or anyone else) over my indignant rage but within a few month’s I calmed down and realized I had indeed been a brat. (And no, I had no actual plan to kill the woman, it was just childish mouthing off and I got over it.)
So maybe there’s hope.
Maybe. I’m convinced it’s idiot parents with good intentions that produce really bratty kids. Don’t get me wrong, assholes will most certainly spawn mini-assholes, but the spawn of really nice people can get ruined through ineffective parenting. I can’t count how many times I’ve said to myself or others “man, that couple is so nice and considerate, how did their child get to be such a monster??”
This is so apropo to my recent experience.
I left the local Target 2 nights ago after purchasing some much needed telephone cord, minutes before they closed. As I walked down the aisle, there was this pissy little cherub seated in the middle of the aisle crying his spoiled eyes out, screaming a torurous lament about not being able to get a ball or some other useless trinket. As motivated as I was to put foot to ass, I hesitated because, one, it wasn’t my kid, and two, mom was just around the corner. I immediately sympathized with mom, because this little sumbitch was one of five bad-ass little boys she was toting about at 9pm on a Sunday night.
I was beside myself to discover that the entire brood was in the shortest of the only two lines open, and mom had a cart overflowing with product. I thought about leaving, but decided to stay and watch. I was in line, thanks to a register malfunction for the better part of 30 minutes watching the menagerie of misfits that this woman toted about scream, screech (that horribly annoying nails-on-the-blackboard screech kids make when mom tunes them out) and clean off freshly stocked endcaps for the impulse buyer in all of us, onto the floor.
Mom didn’t even flinch when hundreds of dollars worth of product was flung about the checkout lanes by her little band of bastards.
Now, I’m not a parent, but I was a kid, and I HAD parents, so I figure, what harm would it be to speak up, there were plenty of people in the lines making noises, but nobody said anything loudly and directly to any one of the group, so I decide to speak up. (A small bit of history, I am 6’5" and sneak up on 300#'s after a hearty meal, not to mention being in law enforcement, so me opening my mouth the way I did had as much an impact on the adults as it did on the kids)
In my best baso profundi, and with as much Sam Kinison as I could muster I yelled “SHUT UP!” it carried throughout the nearly empty store like a fart in a still church, and with about as much effect.
The kids eyes got as round as softballs, and their dirty little fists full of unpaid merchandise dropped to the floor like a ton of stolen bricks. I stood there, red faced and quivering, my fists balled up and my eyes focused on the little band of shitheads.
Mom then glared at me, and to a smattering of applause, through gritted teeth, she mouthed a venomous “don’t you yell at my kids, motherfucker”. “You’re welcome” I said with an exhale.
About then, thankfully, all was well with the register, the cashier, flushed with laughter, handed the receipt off and mom took her brood and stormed off toward the bank of doors. One of the middle sized kids, in an act of completely obtrusive karma, ran, at full speed, with vision obscured by a medium sized ball he was in the throes of coveting, smack into a door I’m sure he expected to open automatically, with an (almost) sickening thud, followed immediately by an indignant scream, as if to blame the door for failing to open (it was a manual door). The entire line of child weary customers giggled the giggle of happy comeuppance as the little bag of snot got his, and how!
I just can’t wait to arrest these little knuckleheads in ten or fifteen years.
My mother once lost her mind with anger when she was in line at the grocery store and the five/six year old kid in front of her just picked up a candy bar from the shelf next to him, tore it open, and proceeded to stuff it hurriedly into his mouth. His mother was getting all her groceries rung up but she turned around to see her kid eat the candy bar, and just turned back around as if nothing were happening.
She said the cashier also noticed the kid with chocolate all over his face, but didn’t say anything either.
So right when the woman’s purchases were all rung up and the cashier had given the woman her total, my mother picked up the discarded candy wrapper from the floor, leaned over and said, “Excuse me. I believe this needs to be paid for as well.”
The cashier looked extremely uncomfortable, the kid started sniveling and screaming that he hadn’t eaten it, and the mother of the child got all red in the face and began muttering under her breath.
But my mother just stood there, candy-wrapper held out, giving them both her special You May Die Soon And You’ll Be Grateful When I’m Done With You glare.
The candy bar was indeed paid for, post-consumption.
And I bet that kid thought of a certain red-headed Candy Crimewatcher the next time he thought about helping himself. 
So… what did the neighbor say? I’d be real darn ticked about my car, if I had a set of new dents in it.
A minor one, but last Friday we were in Blockbuster, picking out a couple of vids. One youngish man was with 3-4 very young kids, maybe aged 2-5, trying to get them to agree on a vid to rent.
All the while we were there, we heard infinite variations of:
Dad: How about Air Bud? That’s a good movie!
Boy: I wanna see it.
Girl: I seen it!
Dad: How about Snow White? We haven’t seen that!
Girl2: I don’t wanna see Snow White. I wanna see Cinderella.
Dad: Okay, we’ll watch Cinderella:
Boy: How come she always gets to pick?
And I am sure you can imagine the pleasant measured tones in which these little tyrants were phrasing their input.
They were at it when we got to the store. It took us a while to make our choice and get rung up, and they were still going at it when we left. As far as I know, they may still be there.
I have 3 kids myself, tho they are now 11-15. So I well know how hard it can be to get them to agree on something like a movie choice. But after a couple of tries, I’d say some variation or combination of:
-We have to make a choice and you have to learn that you don’t all get your first choice.
-Son, I know you aren’t thrilled with what your sisters chose, but -I want all 3 of you to remember that son gets first choice (always subject to parental approval) next time.
-Each of you pick the one movie you most want, and then either figure out which of the 3 you want, or I will make the decision.
-If you don’t want to watch the movie, you can always read a book.
-If you kids don’t find a way to agree, we will leave without renting anything and it will be a long time before we come back.
-Use your indoors voices.
-Crying and being unpleasant is the one way I can guarantee you will NOT get what you want in this family.
-etc.
What I WOULD NOT do is simply continue endlessly with an approach that obviously was not working, and that involved our kids being very loud and unpleasant in a public place.
The missus shushed me when I asked - at normal volume - if our kids had EVER acted like that in public. Later she said “Of course not.”
This guy seemed like he was trying to do a nice thing, rent a not totally sucky movie to watch with the kids. And the kids weren’t demonspawn hellions, just kinda whiney and fussy - maybe tired and hungry at that time in the evening. But the dad just didn’t seem to have a fucking clue.
A child who used to play with my youngest brother was treated in that negligent manner by his parents. He committed his first double homicide before he was 13. The victims were Frank and Jocelyn Toope (scroll down).
I keep wondering what happened if my mother hadn’t banned my brother from playing with that kid-- knowing my brother, I’d probably have a murderer in the family.
So I read through some of that TCS stuff that was linked. Those people are–without prejudice-- insane. I stopped when I read “It is harmful to believe that children are not rational and autonomous.”
Children? Rational? HAHAHAHAH! Only a fucking idiot who had never been through childhood could think that children were rational in any way.
And having adults defer to children in cases of disagreement? You’ve gotta be a fucking twit.
“Lemme drive the car dad.”
“No son, that’s against the law.”
“I don’t care. Gimme the keys.”
“No son, you don’t know how to drive.”
“I don’t care, I have to learn sometime.”
“No son, you’re too young.”
“Gimme the keys now, you bastard.”
“If I give you the keys, we’re all gonna die.”
“I don’t care. Let me drive.”
“Okay son, we obviously can’t build a rational consensus here, and to stop you would be coercion, so here you go.”
<Mass screaming>
I read through their site too, and I’m tempted to start a GD thread about it, but I figure there’s probably not a lot of people here (if any) who would support TCS completely. That’s not to say I found all of the ideas repugnant, more like my reaction went like this:
- Wow, what utter bullshit.
- Hmm. Actually, some of this makes sense.
- No, wait, I was right. This is bullshit.
I tracked down some of Sarah Lawrence’s (the founder) posts on a parenting newsgroup and couldn’t believe it… she’s basically a troll who tells people that disciplining their children isn’t any different than torturing them. When pegged on specific questions about what to do when children behave badly, she waves her hands and dodges the questions, saying that real TCS kids would work with their parents and not behave that way. Real TCS kids don’t really want to do irrational things, they’ll always find a mutual preference that’s even better (not even compromises are allowed). Real TCS kids don’t get cranky when they don’t get enough sleep, and if they do, it’s the Parent’s Fault for whatever is making them cranky. Real TCS kids won’t want to play with dangerous objects or go outside at night or anything else dangerous, and even if they do, it’s their perogative as psychologically autonomous beings, and it would be harmful for you to stop them. Uh, ok. Whatever.
She also likes to make bold assertions that run contrary to what seems like common sense, and then provide hardly any justification for these assertions other than “I know when it happens to me, my reaction is…”. Yeah, great. You’re a real intellectual.
A friend of mine argues with his 8 year old daughter. Instead of saying, “Get ready for bed,” no questions asked, it’s a big argument every night. It’s fucking ridiculous. They go back and forth with it, obviously she’s not going to stop, because she knows she can get away with it. She tries that with me sometimes when I watch her and it is very fun for me to lay down the law. She has no concept of parental authority.
This sounds so typical-not at all like a bad parent.
Good god, when I used to scream, or throw a fit in a story, my parents just carried me out. Sheesh.
ed-what parenting newsgroup? I’d LOVE to read it.
She amuses me. And that David Deutsh character. Sheeeittt!
I found her through Google Groups (I love that service). Mostly she seems to harass people in misc.kids.*, but there may be others I haven’t found.
Thanks! I think her name is Fitz-Clarence now. (Got married, perhaps?)
Yeah, although that means she married someone with a hyphenated name and didn’t choose to hyphenate her own, which is sorta unusual. It’s definitely her though, since the vitriolic tone matches.
What kills me about her is that all of her examples assume that you’re arguing about something arbitrary, like when your child should eat, or bedtimes, or whatnot. There’s absolutely no thought given to constraints from outside sources, like the aforementioned “I wanna drive” scenario. Or drugs. Or playing with a kitchen knife. I mean, shit, if my kid gets mad when I drop him off at day care, what am I supposed to do? Quit my job? Yeah, great, now we’re evicted, and I can’t move out because he doesn’t want to leave, so now I’m arrested… you get the idea.
Makes for fascinating reading though.
Ooo, Audrey, you reminded me of another story.
Again, while working at Wal-mart. (Ugh.)
I had a woman come up to me with her whining five or six year old son, and ask to speak to a manager. I, in the normal course of my duties, asked if it was something I might be able to assist her with. She said no, so I paged for a manager.
When the manager arrived, I told him that this particular lady wanted to speak with him, but I didn’t know what for.
It turns out, her son had gotten into the candy at the checkout, despite her repeated attempts to try and stop him. He had, in fact, eluded her long enough to open a bottle of the “baby pops” candy, though he had maybe one lick before a pissed off Momma found him.
Having done everything else she could, to no avail (grounding, spanking, taking away of privileges, etc), she had no other course. Would Rey (the manager) be willing to explain to her son the consequences of theft?
The kid was bawling in seconds. He knew he was in a lot of trouble already.
I had no sympathy for the kid. Rey’s not a big man, he’s not a scary man. He wasn’t yelling, or screaming, or threatening. He has a son who was about the same age - he was talking to the boy in quiet, reasonable tones.
That made my day. A parent who was taking responsibility. She had told the boy (during the wait for Rey) that he was going to pay for the candy he had stolen with his allowance money.
That was definitely cool.