No shit. I never said he didn’t have a right to his opinion. You misread my post. What I was saying is what makes him so sure he is right?
Here’s the difference between my views and Diamond’s (in a nutshell): I say “live and let live”, whereas, Diamond says, “the way homosexuals live is wrong and they deserve no rights”. I am not telling anyone it’s wrong to live the way they want to. He is. He can have his opinion, just as I have the right to say I disagree with that opinion.
Let me expand on my views, since I can already hear the responses to my last post.
I think “live and let live” when it comes to people in relationships, for example. I’m not talking about letting people run wild, rob banks and commit crimes.
Fine, I’ll be more precise. What ignorant fucking Bible-thumping morons mistakenly think their book says is not relevant to whether my civil rights should be respected and protected.
Gee thanks so much for your permission to speak. Racist remark? What torturous twist of logic do you have to apply to what I said to make it into a racist remark? As for taking the high road, hey, if someone wants to have an actual discussion with me on the topic of same-sex marriage (such as what occurred over in “Responses to Cecil’s Column”) then great, I’ll have it. But ya know what? It wears on me day after day to have to justify my existence to these loser assholes who think that just because they like sticking their dicks in women they’re better than I am, and then whine about what a hardship it is to have to put up with the sick deviants. So yeah, every once in a while I give back what I get. Don’t like it? Too fucking bad, but I don’t need your pissy, prissy, schoolmarm lectures about the fucking high road.
I’m truly very sorry that this happened to you. It is completely inexcusable that anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, should commit sexual abuse against anyone, and the person who did it should be locked away for a very long time.
But you know what? I didn’t molest you. Neither did Esprix or any of the other millions of gay and lesbian people whom you condemn by lumping us in with this one sick rapist. Why should I be blamed for something that happened before I was born?
My suggestion is that you get some therapy. Obviously you are still carrying a heavy burden of guilt, shame and rage over what was done to you. A counselor can help you release those feelings and maybe help you undrestand that blaming people who didn’t hurt you for your pain is not a good thing.
I’m really fucking sorry that we striaght white males are in your face all the time. Really, my heart goes out to you. But you need to pull your head out of your ass and realize that you live in a democracy here. You can’t just ignore the opinion of the majority. And when the MAJORITY of the people say no to homo marriages, there shalt be no homo marriages. You can sit in the corner and suck your fucking thumb, and bite the head off of anyone who tries to tell it to you like it is instead of how you want it to be, or you can get off your ass and come play by the rules.
You want more clarification on my earlier remarks? Fine. You used Diamond to make what I at first interpreted as generalizations about all straight white males. I gave you the benefit of the doubt one time.
And there you go taking that high road again. You say “if anyone wants to come have a discussion with me,” as if you’re the one trying to be civil here. Diamond expressed his opinion, which didn’t happen to be the one that you agreed with, and you started in on him with a string of profanity that would have made a sailor blush. It wears thin on ME, buddy, when I have to sit and listen to you spew that trash that you think to be right reasoning, which in actuality is nothing more than the ignorant blatherings of some self-righteous pissant who thinks he deserves more than he’s getting. I’m sick of having to justify MY existence to people like you, Otto, who think that just because they’re in the minority they can say whatever they want about me. You said “loser assholes who think that just because they like sticking their dicks in women they’re better than I am.” If I were to turn that statement around on you here, I would be immediately labelled a bigot and ostracized from this board. I’m really sorry that there are inconveniences that come along with your lifestyle. I really am. But I have a reality check for you here, dipshit. Everybody, no matter what color, creed, or lifestyle, has certain inconveniences that they are born into. It’s harder for you to have a lifelong relationship. It’s harder for me to get a job. Live with it, don’t live with it, try to do something about it. I don’t care. But keep your ignorant diatribes out of MY face.
I apologize to the rest of you. I guess this was inevitable on this thread, but whatever. Most of the people on this thread have maintained cool heads, and I hope we can continue like that.
“History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.” -Winston Churchill
Rousseau, just to clarify, we do not have absolute majority rule in this nation. The majority of people could vote to make it legal to burn witches at the stake or to make all people hand over their first born child to be raised by the US Army.
They could vote by an overwhelming majority and pass a law, but that law would be struck down as unConstitutional. The Bill of Rights is a powerful document, and it protects people who find themselves in the minority of opinion on one subject or another from the shifting opinions of the majority.
There’s a lot of anger here, and I wish it weren’t so. I wish I could fix what happened to Vestal Blue. I wish I could fix whatever turned the boy that hurt VB into a molester. I wish I could fix things so that love was love, and no one got tied up in a knot over who was sleeping with whom. It isn’t going to happen though.
This loud, uncomfortable, painful process is what we have to go to in order to come to terms with what it means to be human, healthy, and happy. All of us - not just straight, white men. Not just gay women. Not just pedantic, optomist Pagan treehuggers. All of us. No one gets out of it easily.
The quicker we can put aside our anger, the faster we can assure our neighbor that we mean them no harm, the sooner we will all be able to relax and enjoy our own lives.
No shit. But the point is that you can’t just write off the opinion of the majority, as Otto seemed to be doing. And until the notion of gay marriages is acceptable to the majority, they’re not gonna happen.
“History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.” -Winston Churchill
KICK HIS ASS ROUSSEAU!!! Not to mention Otto, as for my being wrong???
Though protesteth too much by protesting at all, its too fucking obvious that you are Esprix. Now fucking deal with it, you reincarnation of some past troll with a new gay quirk to it.
Well, it makes me wonder, Rousseau . . . what was the majority opinion when the Civil Rights movement began? If the majority was against civil rights for blacks, wouldn’t you expect that some members of the “majority opinion” would have been just as virulently against the idea as Diamond/Vestal Blue, Starvin Marvin and a few others have been here?
Does that mean that the people who were for civil rights for all Americans should have given up when they saw that their requests/demands were upsetting others? Should they have tiptoed around the sensibilities of those upset people? Should they have been paragons of patience, sensitivity, and restraint in pushing for the things the majority had long taken for granted? Would that have gotten what they needed faster and with less heartache?
Change, by it’s very nature, is painful. It’s frightening. It’s threatening. We have a group of people that have historically and religiously been judged as perverted, sick, and evil. We have a growing dialogue that judgement isn’t just incorrect, it’s morally wrong. We have people on both sides of the debate who have been horribly hurt and wronged.
If we are to grow as a society, culture, nation, or species, we must go through these messy dilemmas. We will go through these messy dilemmas whether we want to or not, but our own self-awareness can ease the pain. I would rather hear voices raised in contention than silence. Best of all, I would rather hear voices in calm discussion as opposed to a screaming match of pain and hatred.
Please amend “. . . as Diamond/Vestal Blue, Starvin Marvin and a few others have been here?” to read “as Diamond/Vestal Blue, Starvin Marvin and a few others have been about gay rights here.”
I don’t mean to imply any stance towards civil rights for African Americans on anyone else’s part.
Believe me, it’s been beaten into my head pretty much every day of my queer life that the majority rules. I’ve been fairly well drowning in majority culture for decades now.
Fuck playing by the rules if the rules are wrong. Fuck acquiescing to the tyranny of the majority. And fuck you if you think Diamond calling me a pervert is “telling it like it is.”
What did I do to deserve such generosity, especially since you made a completely unwarranted interpretation by generalizing my comments to all str8 white males, when I was actually talking only about those who whine and complain about how hard their lives are because they are str8 white Christian males.
Oh, I never said I was trying to be civil here. I said that in a non-BBQ setting, I had intiated and was continuing a civil conversation.
Well, no, Diamond called me a sexual deviant and held himself out as morally superior.
So skip my posts. No one’s making you read them.
First off, I don’t expect you to justify your existence. If you feel like you have to, that’s your problem. Nor do I believe I can say what I want to you because I’m a minority. I believe I can say what I want to you because this is the goddamn United States of America.
I don’t know of too many gay people who think that they’re superior to str8s solely because of their sexual orientation. On the other hand, innumerable str8s think they’re morally superior to gays because of theirs.
Being gay is not a “lifestyle,” you cretin. Is it so fucking hard for you to understand that? And excuse me, but not having my full civil and Constitutional rights recognized is a little more than an “inconvenience.”
And my righteous rage at being denied my civil and Constitutional rights in no way detracts from the hardships of anyone else. Nor are the hardships of anyone else just cause for the denial of my rights.
How sad, that you don’t care about injustices done to your fellow human beings.
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But keep your ignorant diatribes out of MY face.
[quote]
You want me out of your face? See my earlier message to Diamond to learn how that will happen. Until then, why don’t you look upon it as one of those little inconveniences that goes along with your lifestyle?
Lord, little child, you are dim. What, can’t handle two gay men on the same board with the same opinion? Under your criteria I’d say you were Diamond or Rousseau, but they post far more intelligently and coherently than you could ever hope for, pink boy. Now step aside and let the big boys play 'lest you get yourself hurt…
Esprix
(That’s spelled E-S-P-R-I-X, not O-T-T-O)
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
phouka, I’m not saying that those who believe in gay marriages should give up. Please READ. If you want to compare it to the civil rights movement, I’m saying that Otto’s attitude roughly equates with that of the Black Panthers. The Black Panthers didn’t get shit accomplished to help the civil rights movement along, just like Otto’s lashing out at anyone who dislikes his LIFESTYLE isn’t getting shit accomplished here.
That’s the kind of argument I used to employ, when I was ten years old! No, Otto, I choose to hear out people with opposing viewpoints. That’s how we LEARN. If you want to bury your moron head in the sand and ignore everybody who disagrees with you, well, that’s your right. But I think I’ll at least try to keep my mind open.
You miiiiiight wanna rethink that one.
Really? Quick–name one right that is guaranteed by the Constitution that you cannot exercise because of your LIFESTYLE.
Then what the fuck is it? Even people from the school of thought that it is inborn and genetic agree that it is a lifestyle. You’re leaving yourself without a leg to stand on here.
OK, so then by your logic I can ignore YOUR hardships, since I am blinded by my own “righteous rage.”
Oh, this is really profound coming from you, Otto, since you seem so sympathetic to people who belong to groups other than your own.
Get out of my face, you hypocrite.
“History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.” -Winston Churchill
Dim only describes the lighting in your home whenever males are in your presence. And to call me pink? I am not one of the orifices you wish to indulge in nor am I the shade of the youth you lust over. Let us set the record straight. I noticed that anything having the word or connotations of “non-homosexuality” offends you. So how are you liking THE STRAIGHT dope on how some of us feel about you?
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. "
Jonathan Swift
YOu are right on one thing though- I may be wrong about Esprix and Otto. Perhaps they are lovers attempting to ban together to attack the rest of us? Hence the tightly followed script and finishing of each others thoughts, and the lack of independant argument.
Kinda like Phaedrus and his SO, do they really count as two, when they are and act so ONE?
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. "
Jonathan Swift
Hello, Rousseau, I’m baaaaaack!!! I see you’re as logically challenged as ever.
From a straight white male:
CalifBoomer, StarvinMarvin, Rousseau and Diamond: When did you choose to be straight? If homosexuals CHOOSE to be gay, then I guess heterosexuals CHOOSE to be straight, huh? When did it happen to you? (Yeah, Rousseau, I know you tried to use the “nurture vs. nature” argument. My own personal belief is that nature is stronger than nurture. I’d have to recount most of my life to let you know how I came to this conclusion, and, of course, I could be wrong.)
It’s funny, but I don’t remember choosing to be straight. All I remember is, I started having wet dreams when I was a teen and they all involved women. Hell, the topless women in the freakin’ National Geographic was enough to make me spend way too much time in the bathroom if you know what I mean and I think you do. Seeing pictures of naked women even today at my advanced age is all it takes for me to get a woody. Hell, women in swimsuits is enough. Seeing pictures of naked men does nothing, unless it’s of a naked man having some sort of sex with a woman (unless it’s anal sex; I still have a hang-up about heterosexual anal sex).
Anyway, Otto and Esprix and other homosexuals have as much right to get married and live together as you and I do.
And if you don’t like it, go to Hell, go directly to Hell, do not pass “Go,” do not collect $200.
This was in reference to an earlier post by Esprix. Thus, the following comment must also be directed to him:
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It’s a commonly-accepted canard that gays are more likely to be child molesters than straights. It ain’t so. Esprix is gay; you accuse him of “lusting after youth,” and without evidence, of course. What other conclusion here am I supposed to reach? I haven’t noticed you accusing any known straight person of “lusting after youth.” Did I miss it when you did that?
Seeing pictures of naked women even today at my advanced age is all it takes for me to get a woody. Hell, women in swimsuits is enough. Seeing pictures of naked men does nothing, unless it’s of a naked man having some sort of sex with a woman (unless it’s anal sex; I still have a hang-up about heterosexual anal sex).